rec.autos.simulators

by **j..** » Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
Subject: BGN track pack for NASCAR 2???
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:37:24 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Lines: 11

To anyone who works at Papyrus...is there a possibility of maybe
getting a track pack for NASCAR 2 once its been out for a little while
that has at least SOME of the tracks from Busch Grand National? Maybe
a track pack with some supertruck tracks? Am I the only one who wants
to see this?

Mike Frazer

by **Bill Megginso** » Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:00:00

> Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
> Subject: BGN track pack for NASCAR 2???
> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:37:24 GMT
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> Lines: 11

> To anyone who works at Papyrus...is there a possibility of maybe
> getting a track pack for NASCAR 2 once its been out for a little while
> that has at least SOME of the tracks from Busch Grand National? Maybe
> a track pack with some supertruck tracks? Am I the only one who wants
> to see this?

> Mike Frazer

Yeah, Me too! A track creator program would be cool so that you could
even create a few local tracks!

by **David Marti** » Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:00:00

> Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
> Subject: BGN track pack for NASCAR 2???
> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:37:24 GMT
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> Lines: 11

> To anyone who works at Papyrus...is there a possibility of maybe
> getting a track pack for NASCAR 2 once its been out for a little while
> that has at least SOME of the tracks from Busch Grand National? Maybe
> a track pack with some supertruck tracks? Am I the only one who wants
> to see this?

> Mike Frazer

I'd like to see every track in the world digitized and offered as addons
to NASCAR (pipe dream, yes, I know) :-). There probably isn't enough
time in the world to create all of these tracks accurately. What I'd
like more is the ability to specify a true BGN car. The paint scheme
doesn't necessarily make a BGN car. Sorry Tony. You guys do great jobs
with your BGN paint schemes, but until they actually reside on a
3200lb(?) car it just isn't BGN. BGN cars are shorter, lighter and have
less HP. A BGN track pack would only give us more tracks to run Cup
cars on. Besides, NASCAR isn't necessary synonymous with Winston Cup.
There are 13 divisions of NASCAR and only 2 of them have 3500lb cars:
Winston Cup and NRL. I'm not necessarily supporting creating all types
of cars, but BGN would be great.

David Martin

by **Brent Husch** » Wed, 26 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Speaking of pipe dreams...

How about an add-on track creation pack so you can create tracks yourself...

>> Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
>> Subject: BGN track pack for NASCAR 2???
>> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:37:24 GMT
>> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
>> Lines: 11

>> To anyone who works at Papyrus...is there a possibility of maybe
>> getting a track pack for NASCAR 2 once its been out for a little while
>> that has at least SOME of the tracks from Busch Grand National? Maybe
>> a track pack with some supertruck tracks? Am I the only one who wants
>> to see this?

>> Mike Frazer

>I'd like to see every track in the world digitized and offered as addons
>to NASCAR (pipe dream, yes, I know) :-). There probably isn't enough
>time in the world to create all of these tracks accurately. What I'd
>like more is the ability to specify a true BGN car. The paint scheme
>doesn't necessarily make a BGN car. Sorry Tony. You guys do great jobs
>with your BGN paint schemes, but until they actually reside on a
>3200lb(?) car it just isn't BGN. BGN cars are shorter, lighter and have
>less HP. A BGN track pack would only give us more tracks to run Cup
>cars on. Besides, NASCAR isn't necessary synonymous with Winston Cup.
>There are 13 divisions of NASCAR and only 2 of them have 3500lb cars:
>Winston Cup and NRL. I'm not necessarily supporting creating all types
>of cars, but BGN would be great.

>David Martin

by **Ed Mart** » Thu, 27 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>Speaking of pipe dreams...
>How about an add-on track creation pack so you can create tracks yourself...

Just to give you an idea... it takes us about 2 man months to create
each track. They have to be done in painstaking detail/reality.

In order to get the licenese for the likeness of the track, it has to
be done this way. If we were to offer our track building tools, we
would have to come up with some way to prevent people from creating
licenesed tracks. This isn't to be greedy or evil... it's just a
legal/licensing issue. Well, creating a tool that wouldn't let you
create likenesses of real tracks A) is impossible; and B) kind of
defeats the purpose anyway.

I know people want to see more tracks, and I think that NRL might help
to make that a reality down the road.

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by **David Spark** » Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>In order to get the licenese for the likeness of the track, it has to
>be done this way. If we were to offer our track building tools, we
>would have to come up with some way to prevent people from creating
>licenesed tracks. This isn't to be greedy or evil... it's just a
>legal/licensing issue. Well, creating a tool that wouldn't let you
>create likenesses of real tracks A) is impossible; and B) kind of
>defeats the purpose anyway.

I don't buy this argument, Ed. If this were really a legal issue, there
would be no copy machines, fax machines, scanners, cameras, paintbrushes,
etc. All of these tools are capable of creating likenesses that are
licensed properties. Papyrus can't be held responsible for how its tools
are used. In fact, using this argument, the paintkit in the current
products is a problem.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

by **Herbs** » Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>>In order to get the licenese for the likeness of the track, it has to
>>be done this way. If we were to offer our track building tools, we
>>would have to come up with some way to prevent people from creating
>>licenesed tracks. This isn't to be greedy or evil... it's just a
>>legal/licensing issue. Well, creating a tool that wouldn't let you
>>create likenesses of real tracks A) is impossible; and B) kind of
>>defeats the purpose anyway.

>I don't buy this argument, Ed. If this were really a legal issue, there
>would be no copy machines, fax machines, scanners, cameras, paintbrushes,
>etc. All of these tools are capable of creating likenesses that are
>licensed properties. Papyrus can't be held responsible for how its tools
>are used. In fact, using this argument, the paintkit in the current
>products is a problem.

>Dave "davids" Sparks
>Sequoia Motorsports

I totally agree...They should include it..It would be awsome to create
tracks..it would make nascar 2 that much cooler...A lot of the other
games release map editors (doom, descent, etc..) Why can't you...I am
tired of the legal excuse...By the way..are you guys at Papyrus
part-time lawyers...
Garrett

by **David Marti** » Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:00:00

> >In order to get the licenese for the likeness of the track, it has to
> >be done this way. If we were to offer our track building tools, we
> >would have to come up with some way to prevent people from creating
> >licenesed tracks. This isn't to be greedy or evil... it's just a
> >legal/licensing issue. Well, creating a tool that wouldn't let you
> >create likenesses of real tracks A) is impossible; and B) kind of
> >defeats the purpose anyway.

> I don't buy this argument, Ed. If this were really a legal issue, there
> would be no copy machines, fax machines, scanners, cameras, paintbrushes,
> etc. All of these tools are capable of creating likenesses that are
> licensed properties. Papyrus can't be held responsible for how its tools
> are used. In fact, using this argument, the paintkit in the current
> products is a problem.

> Dave "davids" Sparks
> Sequoia Motorsports

I would like to see more tracks, but I don't want just anyone to be able
to make them. It's bad enough that there are so many car setups floatin
g around that brag about fast laps but aren't necessarily fast for
everyone. Many of them work well only if you don't use an analog
control system. Imagine the number of Daytona tracks that would be
floating around the internet. How could series directors make sure
their drivers are using the correct track instead of the one that is the
fastest. For that matter, how could NRL assure that everyone is using
the same track. A checksum might be able to police this, but there's
nearly always a way around them and for NRL, this who be quite time
consuming.

Papyrus will eventually get around to providing more tracks, some unique
to NRL, I hope. Until then, let's all be satisfied that we are able to
race on as many as we have.

David Martin

by **Ed Mart** » Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>>In order to get the licenese for the likeness of the track, it has to
>>be done this way. If we were to offer our track building tools, we
>>would have to come up with some way to prevent people from creating
>>licenesed tracks. This isn't to be greedy or evil... it's just a
>>legal/licensing issue. Well, creating a tool that wouldn't let you
>>create likenesses of real tracks A) is impossible; and B) kind of
>>defeats the purpose anyway.
>I don't buy this argument, Ed. If this were really a legal issue, there
>would be no copy machines, fax machines, scanners, cameras, paintbrushes,
>etc. All of these tools are capable of creating likenesses that are
>licensed properties. Papyrus can't be held responsible for how its tools
>are used. In fact, using this argument, the paintkit in the current
>products is a problem.
>Dave "davids" Sparks
>Sequoia Motorsports

Well, if you don't buy the arguement, you might want to talk to Jed at
"The Pits" and/or Tim Wortman at N.A.S.S.C.A.R.

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by **Ed Mart** » Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>I totally agree...They should include it..It would be awsome to create
>tracks..it would make nascar 2 that much cooler...A lot of the other
>games release map editors (doom, descent, etc..) Why can't you...I am
>tired of the legal excuse...By the way..are you guys at Papyrus
>part-time lawyers...
>Garrett

I'm sorry that you're tired of the legal excuse. Believe me, I'm even
more tired of the legal REASONS. :-)

No, we're not part-time lawyers, although it would make things a lot
less expensive if we were. When dealing with licensed properties
(i.e. creating products that use them), you have so much exposure to
the issues, you get to understand them as well as the lawyers.

Sorry... :-(

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by Je » Sat, 29 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>I totally agree...They should include it..It would be awsome to create
>tracks..it would make nascar 2 that much cooler...A lot of the other
>games release map editors (doom, descent, etc..) Why can't you...I am
>tired of the legal excuse...By the way..are you guys at Papyrus
>part-time lawyers...
>Garrett

I look at in a similar way.

You can't sue the tool manufacturer for the craftsmans product being a
likeness to somebody elses work.

A lot of people ask me why The Pits doesn't release a track editor.
O.K, we could but look at the hassle I got over Daytona.

My personal reason for not making any tools available is to prevent
other people getting into the same trouble I did.

Secondly, all I'd get is E-Mail from people wanting support for the
editor.

Jed
The Pits
http://www.ukps.com/thepits
http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/thepits/

by **David Spark** » Sun, 30 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>I would like to see more tracks, but I don't want just anyone to be able
>to make them. It's bad enough that there are so many car setups floatin
>g around that brag about fast laps but aren't necessarily fast for
>everyone. Many of them work well only if you don't use an analog
>control system. Imagine the number of Daytona tracks that would be
>floating around the internet. How could series directors make sure
>their drivers are using the correct track instead of the one that is the
>fastest. For that matter, how could NRL assure that everyone is using
>the same track. A checksum might be able to police this, but there's
>nearly always a way around them and for NRL, this who be quite time
>consuming.

Any NRL races must use NASCAR/Papyrus approved tracks, that's the way the
servers work. As far as policing the tracks, this is going to be necessary
regardless of whether a track editor is available. As Gerhard and company
have shown, it's possible for someone to reverse-engineer the track format,
so "technical inspections" will be necessary to prevent cheating.

I'd love to see some "fantasy" tracks as well as some of the Busch short
tracks (Nashville!) and the Craftsman series tracks (Overland Park!).

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

by **David Spark** » Sun, 30 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>>>In order to get the licenese for the likeness of the track, it has to
>>>be done this way. If we were to offer our track building tools, we
>>>would have to come up with some way to prevent people from creating
>>>licenesed tracks.

>>I don't buy this argument, Ed. If this were really a legal issue, there
>>would be no copy machines, fax machines, scanners, cameras, paintbrushes,
>>etc. All of these tools are capable of creating likenesses that are
>>licensed properties. Papyrus can't be held responsible for how its tools
>>are used. In fact, using this argument, the paintkit in the current
>>products is a problem.

>Well, if you don't buy the arguement, you might want to talk to Jed at
>"The Pits" and/or Tim Wortman at N.A.S.S.C.A.R.

Jed's mistake was to call it Daytona and try to make it look like Daytona,
nobody would have fussed. NASSCAR was a blatant case of trademark
infringement, innocent though it was.

There are several Winston Cup teams whose car likenesses were not licensed
by Papyrus that have been rendered in PAINTKIT by users. Has any of them
sent Papyrus a "cease and desist" letter asking you to stop distributing
PAINTKIT because of the potential for someone to create a likeness of their
car with it?

Have Warner Bros, or Disney or any of the other entertainment conglomerates
sent "cease and desist" letters to Sony, JVC, Magnavox or any of the other
companies who make VCRs, tape decks or other equipment capable of creating
or reproducing likenesses of copyright material? No. They tried it early
on, but got stomped on fairly quickly. Remember the proposed $1 blank tape
"tax" that was going to be given to the entertainment industry for
copyright infringement they alleged was bound to occur when someone
purchases a blank tape? It didn't pass either.

You can't be held to blame for selleing a product that MIGHT be used to
violate someone else's rights unless you know that is the purchaser's
intent at the time they purchase it, OR that is the only possible use for
the product. Weapons are an obvious case in point here.

I'm normally on your side with regard to intellectual property issues, but
I don't think your argument holds water here. However, no matter what I
think, Papyrus has the right to decide when it might be treading on thin
legal ice, and so I'll end my argument here. Sierra obviously has deeper
pockets and I'm sure that must be takin into consideration.

I'd still like to see some other tracks, though. <g>

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

by **Darin Ca** » Mon, 01 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Can people honestly say they could tell the difference between a
3200 lb. BGN car and a WC car while racing NCR ? It's hard enough
concentrating on driving in traffic ! Hey, I like the reality of NCR
and these great ideas you guys post here for future releases, but come on
! It's not necessary to get THAT detailed ! Papyrus is busy enough
already getting NASCAR 2 out so lets cut them some slack.

NRL will be huge
! Mark my words !

Darin
Carr

by **Charlie Hea** » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00

>I totally agree...They should include it..It would be awsome to create
>tracks..it would make nascar 2 that much cooler...A lot of the other
>games release map editors (doom, descent, etc..) Why can't you...I am
>tired of the legal excuse...By the way..are you guys at Papyrus
>part-time lawyers...
>Garrett

Garrett - the main reason Papyrus hasn't released track creation tools is
that the tools we have aren't anywhere close to suitable for a consumer
releasable product.

Each of our current tracks takes multiple man months of work, by
professional artists and 3D-smiths who are trained to use the tools. The
tools are a combination of professional art tools and custom track layout
tools. We would need to do multiple man-years of work to get from what
we've got to a product which we could put our name on.

I've lobbied in house to improve our track tools, if only to free up our
artistic resources for other things ... however, I believe Papyrus is at
least a few Christmases away from the possibility of releasing a product
with track development tools.

If we wanted to release track development tools, I don't think we'd need to
get lawyers involved, except to write the part of the license agreement
that tells you you'd be liable if you distribute any tracks derrived from
licensed materials, and to tell us to make sure we never redistribute any
tracks that haven't cleared licensing.

Charlie Heath
Papyrus Design Group