rec.autos.simulators

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:59:08

Eldred,

I've watched that impact 25 times.  I am totally convinced that Dale Jr's
car would have squashed Steve's car in completely if that was a no-give
concrete wall.

That was a monstrously SAVAGE hit those guys took, and that guard rail
absorbed an enormous amount of energy.

There's no roll-cage made that would have survived the force of a 3400 pound
car, right smack in the door nose first, at 150 or so mph, hitting a solid,
stationary object like a concrete wall.

-Larry



Pabst"

> >On a related note:
> >How many of you guys were thinking today.....after the crash.....that
Steve
> >Park needs to hang it up?  I mean....how many times do you have to have
> >season-ending wrecks to get a clue?

> But he didn't start that crash - somebody got into him...

> >And today's wreck....were it not for
> >the luck of hitting the best barrier possible that could have stopped
that
> >type of an impact....at that angle......should have been a lot more than
a
> >"season-ending" wreck for him!  9 out of 10....any other race track
NASCAR
> >runs at practically.......would have killed him today.

> I really don't think he would have been killed.  Severley injured, maybe.
> And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
somebody
> upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:09:09

It just seemed to me that he was more concerned about the 2 hour delay in
the 'show' than he was about the fact that the guardrail saved Steve's Life.

I could be wrong, but that's the way it came across to me.

-Larry



> >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> >race.

> Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did
say
> that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair,
but I
> felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements, not
that
> they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
wreck.
> only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I
doubt
> he is a fool.

> George Adams

> "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin' up
was
> worth the comin' down."
> ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:10:17

I hope it's not plain concreet.  If it is, someone is gonna bite the dust,
eventually  :(

-Larry





> > >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
> the
> > >race.

> > Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did
> say
> > that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair,
> but I
> > felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements,
not
> that
> > they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
> wreck.
> > only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I
> doubt
> > he is a fool.

> > George Adams

> > "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin'
up
> was
> > worth the comin' down."
> > ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

>   I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a
good
> idea.  On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly,
having
> a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
>   Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

> John

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:11:18

BTW... Seeing how that guardrail is designed, and that it stayed together in
strips in that heavy of an impact, I'd be far less worried about taking one
throught the windshield than my car ending up the thickness of a pencil.

-Larry





> > >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
> the
> > >race.

> > Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did
> say
> > that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair,
> but I
> > felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements,
not
> that
> > they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
> wreck.
> > only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I
> doubt
> > he is a fool.

> > George Adams

> > "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin'
up
> was
> > worth the comin' down."
> > ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

>   I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a
good
> idea.  On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly,
having
> a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
>   Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

> John

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:13:24

That was a different kind of concrete wall in an area not expected to
experience true high-speed hits.  If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that
peripheral walling near the entry to the pits?

That would never be used in a 'primary' impact area.

He wasn't going that fast, either.  It did launch his car up into the air
though.  Thank goodness Dale & Steve didn't hit THAT stuff at 150mph!

-Larry


> Jeremy Mayfield (I think) ran into a concrete barrier later in the
> race.  It was that sectional sort of stuff they use for temporary
> medians in highway construction.  It also gave way and absorbed some
> impact.  I dont think Mayfield was hurt in the wreck, but I didn't
> ever hear for sure.

> I won't pretend to know all the plusses and minuses of one barrier
> over another, but they were able to get the race restarted in a very
> short period of time vs. repairing the metal guardrail.

> Maybe if they had long sections of guardrail pre-assembled?

> Gerald




- Show quoted text -




> > > >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > > >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > > >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay
in
> >  the
> > > >race.

> > > Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He
did
> >  say
> > > that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to
repair,
> >  but I
> > > felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements,
not
> >  that
> > > they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
> >  wreck.
> > > only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but
I
> >  doubt
> > > he is a fool.

> > > George Adams

> > > "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the
goin' up
> >  was
> > > worth the comin' down."
> > > ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

> >   I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a
good
> > idea.  On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly,
having
> > a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
> >   Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

> > John

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:14:59

yeah, it's not like they don't have a few hundred tire carcasses lying
around after a race :)

-Larry


> I can't believe in this day and age that the inside walls at NASCAR
> events are still solid concrete in most cases.

> It's nice that they put water barrels at the very ends to absorb the
> harshest impacts, but I'm amazed they haven't started using tire
> barriers on the pit and inside walls a'la F1, since that seems to be
> the most effective way of slowing a car.

> Jason


> >Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was
fixed
> >at Pocono.  Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> >race.

> >Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two
drivers
> >lives today.  One for sure.  I have serious doubts whether Steve Park
would
> >have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today.  Dale
> >Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

> >Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet,
and
> >there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the
impact.

> >At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have
taken
> >a trip in the Helicopter today.

> >So what is it Mike.  Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the 'show'
> >that matters the most?  I care more that both of them walked away than
the
> >fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

> >Yeah, yeah.  I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement,
but
> >the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

> >-Larry

L.A. Mi

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by L.A. Mi » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:19:35

And since I believe in the God of Creation instead of "The Omnipotent
Gas" theory, I won't comment about your speculation as to the lack of
a God. <g>

Andre Ming


> Jason....I was using the phrase more as a "figure of speech"....but I get
> your point.

> TP




> > >And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
>  somebody
> > >upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> > I was thinking the same thing. =)

> > Jason

SimRace

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by SimRace » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 01:10:16


THIS is why I would like to see (or hear about at least) the black box data
from both Junior's and Steve's cars. We don't have a similar crash with data
available to compare it too, but this was a better test than driving cars
into softwalls or cars equuipped with the Humpy bumper into regular walls,
at 45-50 mph I'd think.

SimRace

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by SimRace » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 01:05:03










<SNIP>

Yes John, AFAIK the black boxes were tested last season and are mandated in
every car starting every NASCAR WC event this year. Apparently they show a
lot of data like G load, speed and angle at impact, pitch, yaw, all that
good stuff. That's how they can tell that the car got loose before the
backing-in to the wall type wrecks. Crew members (at BAM especially) have
seen how bad their car was getting into yaw immediately prior to losing
control. The bad news is that I don't think they (the teams) have direct
access to the data and only get snippets of it when a wreck does occur.
Knowing exactly when your car was starting to yaw at a certain track would
be an invaluable tuning tip for the crew chiefs if they could get the data,
I would think so anyway.

After every wreck experienced by the panel on Inside Winston Cup on Speed
(Ken Schrader, Mike Waltrip, and Johnny Benson) they seem to refer to *their
black box numbers* when discussing the incident so it seems everyone does
indeed have one on board nowadays.

Tom Pabs

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 02:24:30

Actually....there doesn't need to be any degradation of the roll cage
integrity - to kill you instantly - in a high speed impact like that.  The
fact that Dale's car was behind Park could have actually helped reduce the
chances of Park being killed.  Like the fall from a building, "Its not the
fall that kills you.  Its that sudden stop at the bottom!"

Concrete would have likely created a greater deceleration of Park's race
car.  The human's internal organs can not withstand sudden stops.  The
heart, suspended very loosely in its cavity by light bands of muscle, is a
heavy mass.  It moves forward in the chest wall rapidly, while the aorta
(the largest artery coming directly off the top of the heart - very well
secured and tightly held) doesn't move with the heart mass.  That causes a
rip of the aorta - right at the exit from the heart.  You have about 10
seconds of life left, when that happens.  Most autopsies of auto related
deaths, show this "rip" between the aorta and heart.  While there may or may
not be other collateral damage to the body from things hitting it, the death
occurred from the aorta rip.  The idea of armco....is to slow the
deceleration of something hitting it.  It acts like a huge "*** band" if
you want to think of it that way.  With Dale's car behind Park's, the extra
mass would have pushed the armco back even further than Park's car would
have alone....thus spreading the deceleration over a larger
distance.....providing a more survivable impact - not a less survivable
impact.

I hope that makes sense?  I know it does but it may seem contrary to what
you guys are thinking about what kills you in a high-speed crash.  I've only
hit armco at a fairly high speed once during my racing career.  As is the
case in all accidents, your "memory" of it is very much in slow motion.  I
hit the armco coming out of T-1 at Portland International Raceway, in a GT-3
Porsche, doing about 40 mph (estimated at the time of impact).  It was at an
angle about 60 degrees or so.  I remember the deceleration (the "thump" as I
call it) being much slower than my mind was prepared for when I saw that
armco wall coming at me!  I also was very aware that the race car then was
launched backwards and off the barrier after the initial "hit" - and that
surprised me at the time!  It actually felt like I'd struck a huge ***
band.  I wasn't badly injured thank goodness.  But I had pretty bad bruising
across my belly, and from the top of my shoulders to about my *** area,
on both sides.  There was actually some sub-dermal hematoma's on my
shoulders where the seat belts gripped me.  But the next day, all the pain
was internal.  I literally could not walk or talk - any movement of my body
made an extremely painful feeling in my stomach and chest - almost like
really bad gas pains or something.  Its hard to describe.  I was told that
had I been going maybe 10 mph faster, and hit at an angle closer to 90
degrees or so, I might not have been so lucky.  It was something I will
never forget, not ever.  Its the only bad accident I had in 10 years or so
of full-season competition racing.  I wasn't really fast enough to get
myself in more trouble.....lol....!!

Regards,

Tom

PS:  As a side note to this accident.  It occurred in an SCCA sanctioned
race.  One of the rules of the SCCA (Portland Region) was that if you hit
the armco at Portland, you had to pay the race track for its subsequent
repair.  Besides the damage to my Porsche GT-3 race car, I had to pay PIR
about $1,500 to fix the armco in T-1.  Ouch!  My checkbook sustained
internal injuries as well as my body! ....lol.....


> Eldred,

> I've watched that impact 25 times.  I am totally convinced that Dale Jr's
> car would have squashed Steve's car in completely if that was a no-give
> concrete wall.

> That was a monstrously SAVAGE hit those guys took, and that guard rail
> absorbed an enormous amount of energy.

> There's no roll-cage made that would have survived the force of a 3400
pound
> car, right smack in the door nose first, at 150 or so mph, hitting a
solid,
> stationary object like a concrete wall.

> -Larry




> Pabst"

> > >On a related note:
> > >How many of you guys were thinking today.....after the crash.....that
> Steve
> > >Park needs to hang it up?  I mean....how many times do you have to have
> > >season-ending wrecks to get a clue?

> > But he didn't start that crash - somebody got into him...

> > >And today's wreck....were it not for
> > >the luck of hitting the best barrier possible that could have stopped
> that
> > >type of an impact....at that angle......should have been a lot more
than
> a
> > >"season-ending" wreck for him!  9 out of 10....any other race track
> NASCAR
> > >runs at practically.......would have killed him today.

> > I really don't think he would have been killed.  Severley injured,
maybe.
> > And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
> somebody
> > upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom Pabs

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 02:27:16

Tim...

Another way to look at it, using your perspective:

You are already a **fan** of "The Man" upstairs, when he sends you warnings!
If he doesn't like you - you don't get warnings!  You know what I mean?

Tom
-:)




> > .....do you think somebody upstairs is maybe sending
> > you a clue.....get another career?

> I think it was Rusty Wallace that was trying to send Park a clue and it
was
> somebody upstairs steering Park into the energy absorbing guardrail at the
> perfect angle and keeping the possible threat of fire away so Park can
race
> next week at the Brickyard.

> It seems that somebody upstairs is a Steve Park fan in my opinion!
> ;)

> -Tim

Eldre

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Eldre » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 02:31:11


Jason has just been removed from the invite list on my server.  He won't be
playing with us anymore...<g>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Eldre » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 02:31:10



>Eldred,

>I've watched that impact 25 times.  I am totally convinced that Dale Jr's
>car would have squashed Steve's car in completely if that was a no-give
>concrete wall.

Well, I don't have the 'luxury' of reviewing it.  I didn't tape the race, and I
haven't found where to download it free yet...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

John Pancoas

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by John Pancoas » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 07:34:57











> <SNIP>

> > of glancing blows which increases driver survivability IMHO.

> >   Are they using boxes now ?  I know it was considered, but never
followed
> > it after that.

> > John

> Yes John, AFAIK the black boxes were tested last season and are mandated
in
> every car starting every NASCAR WC event this year. Apparently they show a
> lot of data like G load, speed and angle at impact, pitch, yaw, all that
> good stuff. That's how they can tell that the car got loose before the
> backing-in to the wall type wrecks. Crew members (at BAM especially) have
> seen how bad their car was getting into yaw immediately prior to losing
> control. The bad news is that I don't think they (the teams) have direct
> access to the data and only get snippets of it when a wreck does occur.
> Knowing exactly when your car was starting to yaw at a certain track would
> be an invaluable tuning tip for the crew chiefs if they could get the
data,
> I would think so anyway.

> After every wreck experienced by the panel on Inside Winston Cup on Speed
> (Ken Schrader, Mike Waltrip, and Johnny Benson) they seem to refer to
*their
> black box numbers* when discussing the incident so it seems everyone does
> indeed have one on board nowadays.

  Ok, thanks.  Have to admit, I don't follow the daily stuff near as much as
 I used to since Dale died.

John

- Show quoted text -

Larr

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

by Larr » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:19:59

We really should close this thread right now, before it gets out of hand :)

-Larry


> And since I believe in the God of Creation instead of "The Omnipotent
> Gas" theory, I won't comment about your speculation as to the lack of
> a God. <g>

> Andre Ming



> > Jason....I was using the phrase more as a "figure of speech"....but I
get
> > your point.

> > TP




> > > >And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
> >  somebody
> > > >upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> > > I was thinking the same thing. =)

> > > Jason


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