rec.autos.simulators

by **Larr** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:02:55

Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was fixed
at Pocono. Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in the
race.

Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two drivers
lives today. One for sure. I have serious doubts whether Steve Park would
have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today. Dale
Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet, and
there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the impact.

At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have taken
a trip in the Helicopter today.

So what is it Mike. Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the 'show'
that matters the most? I care more that both of them walked away than the
fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

Yeah, yeah. I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement, but
the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

-Larry

by **George Ada** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:34:29

>Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
>indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
>Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in the
>race.

Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did say
that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair, but I
felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements, not that
they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the wreck.
only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I doubt
he is a fool.

George Adams

"From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin' up was
worth the comin' down."
___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

by **John Pancoas** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:11:42

> >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> >race.

> Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did
say
> that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair,
but I
> felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements, not
that
> they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
wreck.
> only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I
doubt
> he is a fool.

> George Adams

> "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin' up
was
> worth the comin' down."
> ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a good
idea. On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly, having
a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

John

by **Mitch Alatorr** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:28:04

There used to be a time when race car drivers, along with bull fighters and
mountain climbers were singled out as the "Bravest" amongst us. Now we talk
about gaurdrails :-)

Mitch

by **Stuart Becktel** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:06:51

It is the show that is more important, just look at the series:
Cars that are big hunks of metal with very few parts that are removeable in
a crash (basically sheetmetal.)
No full time safety crews, other series with full time crews have had better
driver safety records, as well as drivers feeling better by knowing the guy
working on them.
Took a few years before they did anything related to drivers deaths, all of
their deaths very much related to another.

NASCAR makes F1 look safe IMO. The only part that I could find that is bad
with the guard rail is that if it had failed, like lets say DEjr behind SP
instead of too the side, it would have gone through, and then probably gone
through a chain link fence (not a good thing to have as a projectiale.) Now
while I don't agree with the fact that both drivers would have died (it was
bad, but not THAT bad) they need to do something to the cars to make them
more crushable.
-Stuart Becktell

by **John Pancoas** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:39:22

Nah, actually talking about a dumb statement by a moronic series head :)

John

> There used to be a time when race car drivers, along with bull fighters
and
> mountain climbers were singled out as the "Bravest" amongst us. Now we
talk
> about gaurdrails :-)

> Mitch

> > Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was
fixed
> > at Pocono. Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> > race.

> > Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two
> drivers
> > lives today. One for sure. I have serious doubts whether Steve Park
> would
> > have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today.
Dale
> > Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

> > Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet,
and
> > there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the
impact.

> > At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have
> taken
> > a trip in the Helicopter today.

> > So what is it Mike. Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the
'show'
> > that matters the most? I care more that both of them walked away than
the
> > fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

> > Yeah, yeah. I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement,
but
> > the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

> > -Larry

by **jason moy** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:01:15

I can't believe in this day and age that the inside walls at NASCAR
events are still solid concrete in most cases.

It's nice that they put water barrels at the very ends to absorb the
harshest impacts, but I'm amazed they haven't started using tire
barriers on the pit and inside walls a'la F1, since that seems to be
the most effective way of slowing a car.

Jason

>Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was fixed
>at Pocono. Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
>indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
>Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in the
>race.

>Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two drivers
>lives today. One for sure. I have serious doubts whether Steve Park would
>have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today. Dale
>Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

>Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet, and
>there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the impact.

>At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have taken
>a trip in the Helicopter today.

>So what is it Mike. Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the 'show'
>that matters the most? I care more that both of them walked away than the
>fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

>Yeah, yeah. I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement, but
>the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

>-Larry

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:44:16

Not that I'm necessarily a big Mike Helton fan (I'm not).....I didn't get
the impression you did from his statement today, Larry. I thought he was
trying to indicate that neither armco nor concrete barriers were wholly
adequate in his (NASCAR's) eyes.....both with advantages and disadvantages.
Armco's disadvantage (as he pointed out) was the long delay to repair it
before racing could resume. From the severity of the impact....and
remembering others I've seen in the last few years of similar velocity and
angle.....who hit concrete barriers instead of armco....flying gas tanks and
engines......the disadvantage of concrete barriers is obvious. But, they
can be repaired quickly.....which is only a fact I point out....not my
endor***t of using them.

I have to agree with the idea that it seems....until a better solution comes
around.....maybe from technology of NASA or something of that
nature.....that good old fashion tire stacks (adequately tied together)
fronting concrete barriers that are not anchored nor cabled
together.....with strategically placed water barrels.......is the best
interim solution. All tracks can afford this....and there is no
"technology" that must be acquired to install them.

Mike Helton is known for putting his foot in his mouth. I think today's
statement maybe was just "two toes!" I don't think you'll see concrete
barriers in the infield at Pocono next season.....no way, Jose'!

On a related note:
How many of you guys were thinking today.....after the crash.....that Steve
Park needs to hang it up? I mean....how many times do you have to have
season-ending wrecks to get a clue? And today's wreck....were it not for
the luck of hitting the best barrier possible that could have stopped that
type of an impact....at that angle......should have been a lot more than a
"season-ending" wreck for him! 9 out of 10....any other race track NASCAR
runs at practically.......would have killed him today. I'm not saying the
accidents were Steve's fault...or that he is necessarily a bad driver
(although he does get into a lot of wrecks...along with his bad
ones)......but heck man.....do you think somebody upstairs is maybe sending
you a clue.....get another career? If Steve doesn't quit.....I think DEI
should fire him! And if they did.....I bet you that he would not find a
ride elsewhere NASCAR. It would be tough on his ego....and tough on him
mentally.....but he'd have a good chance of living to be 30 years old. If
he keeps racing....I think his odds are low. And I really, really like
Steve Park......maybe that's why I'm saying this......it was on my mind all
day after the Pocono race.

Regards,

Tom

by **Mar** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:03:05

> I can't believe in this day and age that the inside walls at NASCAR
> events are still solid concrete in most cases.

> It's nice that they put water barrels at the very ends to absorb the
> harshest impacts, but I'm amazed they haven't started using tire
> barriers on the pit and inside walls a'la F1, since that seems to be
> the most effective way of slowing a car.

Depends on what you want. There is no easy solution to this one. If
the angle of impact most likely to be shallow, then concrete would be
preferable as you're just gonna glance and slide. If you have tyres
then you'd snag and the deceleration would be much higher and no fun
at all...

Agreed that there must be a better solution, but I don't know what
that would be if it's to remain a spectator friendly sport.

Mark
Reading, UK

by **Scott B. Huste** » Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:14:26

Why did you bring Tony George and the IRL into this? =)

--
Scott B. Husted
PA-Scott
ICQ# 4395450
http://www.Husted.cc

by **Gerald Moo** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:15:51

Jeremy Mayfield (I think) ran into a concrete barrier later in the
race. It was that sectional sort of stuff they use for temporary
medians in highway construction. It also gave way and absorbed some
impact. I dont think Mayfield was hurt in the wreck, but I didn't
ever hear for sure.

I won't pretend to know all the plusses and minuses of one barrier
over another, but they were able to get the race restarted in a very
short period of time vs. repairing the metal guardrail.

Maybe if they had long sections of guardrail pre-assembled?

Gerald

> > >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
> the
> > >race.

> > Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did
> say
> > that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair,
> but I
> > felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements, not
> that
> > they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
> wreck.
> > only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I
> doubt
> > he is a fool.

> > George Adams

> > "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin' up
> was
> > worth the comin' down."
> > ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

> I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a good
> idea. On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly, having
> a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
> Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

> John

by **Eldre** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:25:55

>On a related note:
>How many of you guys were thinking today.....after the crash.....that Steve
>Park needs to hang it up? I mean....how many times do you have to have
>season-ending wrecks to get a clue?

But he didn't start that crash - somebody got into him...

I really don't think he would have been killed. Severley injured, maybe.
And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about somebody
upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Tanstaaf** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:29:56

Why not just bring in those portable concrete barriers to fill in the space
in the broken rail until the race ends. Odds against a crash in the same
100 foot space aren't that high and the race resumes sooner.

by **<n..** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:55:23

cause you don't want the end of a guard rail sticking out waiting for
someone to hit it.

by **SimRace** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 05:20:59

> > >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
> the
> > >race.

> > Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He did
> say
> > that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to repair,
> but I
> > felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements,
not
> that
> > they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
> wreck.
> > only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but I
> doubt
> > he is a fool.

> > George Adams

> > "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin'
up
> was
> > worth the comin' down."
> > ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

> I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a
good
> idea. On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly,
having
> a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
> Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

> John

I also got the impression that the armco barrier was on the way out in lieu
of concrete or some other type of barrier too. Whatever it ends up being,
they need to take the black box from the 1 car and make sure that the
replacement barrier can displace the amount of G's that the armco did
yesterday. It turned what was going to be a certain bad crash into a series
of glancing blows which increases driver survivability IMHO.

rec.autos.simulators

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments