rec.autos.simulators

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 05:45:16

The armco style guardrail system....relies in part....on the metal rails
being tied together......so the impact is absorbed or distributed throughout
several hundred feet of rail...on either side of the accident's impact zone.
Every place where you break that continuity...you lower the ability of the
guardrail to absorb impacts. While bringing in concrete barriers to the
immediate crash impact site....would fix that portion of the armco....it
would be substantially weakened for a few hundred feet either side of that
impact zone. That's not acceptable....and that's why the armco needed to be
repaired before racing could resume. While the "odds may have been low" for
an exact site duplicate crash....they would not be low....for an accident
occurring later in the race.......somewhere in that general vicinity!

TP

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 05:53:56

Eldred...

I didn't state that I thought Steve was at fault.......or to blame for
yesterday's accident...or any of his two previous, "season-ending"
accidents. He was, in fact....not at fault for the others either. They
were not caused by driver error or anything of the like. I think that would
be clear when I said, "I'm not saying the accidents were Steve's fault...or
that he is necessarily a bad driver (although he does get into a lot of
wrecks...along with his bad ones)...." What I was pointing out.....is that
when you are a cat....and you've just used up "life #8"....you might
reasonably conclude that you would discontinue the activity that consumed
life's #1 thru #8.....since you only have one left!

You just did.

TP

Pabst"

> >On a related note:
> >How many of you guys were thinking today.....after the crash.....that
Steve
> >Park needs to hang it up? I mean....how many times do you have to have
> >season-ending wrecks to get a clue?

> But he didn't start that crash - somebody got into him...

> >And today's wreck....were it not for
> >the luck of hitting the best barrier possible that could have stopped
that
> >type of an impact....at that angle......should have been a lot more than
a
> >"season-ending" wreck for him! 9 out of 10....any other race track
NASCAR
> >runs at practically.......would have killed him today.

> I really don't think he would have been killed. Severley injured, maybe.
> And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
somebody
> upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **John Pancoas** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:06:58

Lol, good point; they need to get in line I guess.

John

> Why did you bring Tony George and the IRL into this? =)

> --
> Scott B. Husted
> PA-Scott
> ICQ# 4395450
> http://www.Husted.cc

> > Nah, actually talking about a dumb statement by a moronic series head
:)

> > John

by **John Pancoas** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:07:39

> > > >Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > > >indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > > >Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay
in
> > the
> > > >race.

> > > Wow! I saw the interview, and didn't get that impression at all. He
did
> > say
> > > that the only drawback to the guard rail was the time it took to
repair,
> > but I
> > > felt he was indicating that Nascar would be looking for improvements,
> not
> > that
> > > they were considering going back to concrete. Given the outcome of the
> > wreck.
> > > only a fool would suggest that, and Helton may be a lot of things, but
I
> > doubt
> > > he is a fool.

> > > George Adams

> > > "From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the
goin'
> up
> > was
> > > worth the comin' down."
> > > ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

> > I got the same impression as Larry; concrete next year, which isn't a
> good
> > idea. On the other hand, it's been pointed out to me, and correctly,
> having
> > a guard rail come through your window isn't a good option either.
> > Hopefully, if it's concrete, it'll be something besides a plain wall.

> > John

> I also got the impression that the armco barrier was on the way out in
lieu
> of concrete or some other type of barrier too. Whatever it ends up being,
> they need to take the black box from the 1 car and make sure that the
> replacement barrier can displace the amount of G's that the armco did
> yesterday. It turned what was going to be a certain bad crash into a
series
> of glancing blows which increases driver survivability IMHO.

Are they using boxes now ? I know it was considered, but never followed
it after that.

John

- Show quoted text -

by **jason moy** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:09:03

I was thinking the same thing. =)

Jason

by **jason moy** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:15:04

Maybe if you're really superstitious, which I guess most racers are,
so in that sense I am somewhat surprised that he hasn't retired. On
the other hand, and don't mean this as a slap in the face of religion
or anything (do what you have to do, I say), he's probably of the mind
that "when God says it's my time to go, it's my time to go".
Personally, I would have the philosophy of "driving 200mph in unsafe
cars is increasing the odds of me being killed before I turn 50" and
go from there.

If I were him I probably would have retired after the accident at
Atlanta a few years ago. If not then, definitely after the accident
at Darlington. Then again, I doubt I would have the balls to do what
he does for a living anyway.

Jason

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:55:39

Jason....I was using the phrase more as a "figure of speech"....but I get
your point.

TP

> >And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
somebody
> >upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> I was thinking the same thing. =)

> Jason

by **Glen Pittma** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:37:18

While I agree with most of your statement, it WAS that bad. In years past I
would have agreed on that part, but after having seen Dale Earnhardt die at
Daytona in a crash with much less energy IMO, I now realize that every crash
is a Bad Crash.

> > Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was
fixed
> > at Pocono. Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> > race.

> > Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two
> drivers
> > lives today. One for sure. I have serious doubts whether Steve Park
> would
> > have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today.
Dale
> > Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

> > Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet,
and
> > there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the
impact.

> > At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have
> taken
> > a trip in the Helicopter today.

> > So what is it Mike. Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the
'show'
> > that matters the most? I care more that both of them walked away than
the
> > fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

> > Yeah, yeah. I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement,
but
> > the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

> > -Larry

> It is the show that is more important, just look at the series:
> Cars that are big hunks of metal with very few parts that are removeable
in
> a crash (basically sheetmetal.)
> No full time safety crews, other series with full time crews have had
better
> driver safety records, as well as drivers feeling better by knowing the
guy
> working on them.
> Took a few years before they did anything related to drivers deaths, all
of
> their deaths very much related to another.

> NASCAR makes F1 look safe IMO. The only part that I could find that is bad
> with the guard rail is that if it had failed, like lets say DEjr behind SP
> instead of too the side, it would have gone through, and then probably
gone
> through a chain link fence (not a good thing to have as a projectiale.)
Now
> while I don't agree with the fact that both drivers would have died (it
was
> bad, but not THAT bad) they need to do something to the cars to make them
> more crushable.
> -Stuart Becktell

by **jason moy** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:08:13

I know, Tom, just ribbing ya.

No offense meant...

Jason

>Jason....I was using the phrase more as a "figure of speech"....but I get
>your point.

>TP

>> >And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
>somebody
>> >upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

>> I was thinking the same thing. =)

>> Jason

by **Tim Mise** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:45:15

How about those Tire walls that they have at Infineon (SearsPoint)?
Inexpensive, absorbs impact, and won't destroy themselves after impact. Can
the solution be any simpler?

-Tim

by **Tim Mise** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:59:08

I think it was Rusty Wallace that was trying to send Park a clue and it was
somebody upstairs steering Park into the energy absorbing guardrail at the
perfect angle and keeping the possible threat of fire away so Park can race
next week at the Brickyard.

It seems that somebody upstairs is a Steve Park fan in my opinion!
;)

-Tim

by **Phillip Malphrus, Jr** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:25:10

Well, I hope you change one day :)

Phillip

> And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
somebody
> upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

> Eldred

by **jason moy** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:43:49

I think that would somehow violate the sacred *** bond that has
grown between us.

Er, crap, I promised Eldred I wouldn't mention that on here...

Jason

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:25:10 -0400, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr."

>Well, I hope you change one day :)

>Phillip

>> And since I'm an atheist, I can't comment on your speculation about
>somebody
>> upstairs sending him a clue...<g>

>> Eldred

by **Larr** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:53:54

If that was concrete, Dale's car would have squashed Steve's the thickness
of a pencil. Those guys hit at like 150mph or something like that. No roll
cage would have ever survived that.

I honestly believe that if that was a concrete wall, at a minimum Steve Park
would not be with us today.

-Larry

> > Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was
fixed
> > at Pocono. Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> > race.

> > Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two
> drivers
> > lives today. One for sure. I have serious doubts whether Steve Park
> would
> > have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today.
Dale
> > Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

> > Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet,
and
> > there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the
impact.

> > At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have
> taken
> > a trip in the Helicopter today.

> > So what is it Mike. Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the
'show'
> > that matters the most? I care more that both of them walked away than
the
> > fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

> > Yeah, yeah. I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement,
but
> > the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

> > -Larry

> It is the show that is more important, just look at the series:
> Cars that are big hunks of metal with very few parts that are removeable
in
> a crash (basically sheetmetal.)
> No full time safety crews, other series with full time crews have had
better
> driver safety records, as well as drivers feeling better by knowing the
guy
> working on them.
> Took a few years before they did anything related to drivers deaths, all
of
> their deaths very much related to another.

> NASCAR makes F1 look safe IMO. The only part that I could find that is bad
> with the guard rail is that if it had failed, like lets say DEjr behind SP
> instead of too the side, it would have gone through, and then probably
gone
> through a chain link fence (not a good thing to have as a projectiale.)
Now
> while I don't agree with the fact that both drivers would have died (it
was
> bad, but not THAT bad) they need to do something to the cars to make them
> more crushable.
> -Stuart Becktell

by **Larr** » Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:56:00

It was pretty clear to me that he was far more concerned about the 2 hour
delay in the 'show' than he was about the fact that the guard-rail system
saved Steve Parks life Sunday.

I would have waited a week if it meant Steve climbing out of that car.

That bothered me. A lot.

-Larry

> Not that I'm necessarily a big Mike Helton fan (I'm not).....I didn't get
> the impression you did from his statement today, Larry. I thought he was
> trying to indicate that neither armco nor concrete barriers were wholly
> adequate in his (NASCAR's) eyes.....both with advantages and
disadvantages.
> Armco's disadvantage (as he pointed out) was the long delay to repair it
> before racing could resume. From the severity of the impact....and
> remembering others I've seen in the last few years of similar velocity and
> angle.....who hit concrete barriers instead of armco....flying gas tanks
and
> engines......the disadvantage of concrete barriers is obvious. But, they
> can be repaired quickly.....which is only a fact I point out....not my
> endor***t of using them.

> I have to agree with the idea that it seems....until a better solution
comes
> around.....maybe from technology of NASA or something of that
> nature.....that good old fashion tire stacks (adequately tied together)
> fronting concrete barriers that are not anchored nor cabled
> together.....with strategically placed water barrels.......is the best
> interim solution. All tracks can afford this....and there is no
> "technology" that must be acquired to install them.

> Mike Helton is known for putting his foot in his mouth. I think today's
> statement maybe was just "two toes!" I don't think you'll see concrete
> barriers in the infield at Pocono next season.....no way, Jose'!

> On a related note:
> How many of you guys were thinking today.....after the crash.....that
Steve
> Park needs to hang it up? I mean....how many times do you have to have
> season-ending wrecks to get a clue? And today's wreck....were it not for
> the luck of hitting the best barrier possible that could have stopped that
> type of an impact....at that angle......should have been a lot more than a
> "season-ending" wreck for him! 9 out of 10....any other race track NASCAR
> runs at practically.......would have killed him today. I'm not saying the
> accidents were Steve's fault...or that he is necessarily a bad driver
> (although he does get into a lot of wrecks...along with his bad
> ones)......but heck man.....do you think somebody upstairs is maybe
sending
> you a clue.....get another career? If Steve doesn't quit.....I think DEI
> should fire him! And if they did.....I bet you that he would not find a
> ride elsewhere NASCAR. It would be tough on his ego....and tough on him
> mentally.....but he'd have a good chance of living to be 30 years old. If
> he keeps racing....I think his odds are low. And I really, really like
> Steve Park......maybe that's why I'm saying this......it was on my mind
all
> day after the Pocono race.

> Regards,

> Tom

> > Mike Helton confused me today in his interview after the railing was
fixed
> > at Pocono. Reading between the lines, and in a way almost directly, he
> > indicated that he wanted that guard rail taken down and replaced with
> > Concrete because of the extensive repair-time it took and the delay in
the
> > race.

> > Excuse me Mr. Helton, but that Guard Rail, IMHO, possibly saved two
> drivers
> > lives today. One for sure. I have serious doubts whether Steve Park
> would
> > have survived that crash if it were a concrete barrier there today.
Dale
> > Jr. might not have come out of it too good either.

> > Those guys deflected 100 feet of Guard Rail inwards a good 15-20 feet,
and
> > there is NO question that it's design absorbed a great deal of the
impact.

> > At the very least, if that wall were Concrete, I think both would have
> taken
> > a trip in the Helicopter today.

> > So what is it Mike. Driver safety first, or or conveniencd to the
'show'
> > that matters the most? I care more that both of them walked away than
the
> > fact that the race was delayed by 2 hours because of the fence repairs.

> > Yeah, yeah. I know I'm probably making too much out of his statement,
but
> > the announcers seemed to get that feeling too.

> > -Larry

rec.autos.simulators

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments

OT: Mike Helton - Confusing Comments