rec.autos.simulators

1.      fangio
2.      prost
3.      senna
        moss
5.      clark  
        schumaker      
        lauda
        stewart        
        ascari
10.     mansell

numbered where i've remembered.  moss and schi could have been transposed.
not sure of the ordering of the 3 above mansell.

martin.
--

Mansell but no Nuvolari or GVilleneuve ?

Was Murray talking about the best drivers or best racers here ?  Im still
happy to see Ascari here, a great under-esteemed person who was as important
as Fangio, just a little less "idolistic" to the people of that time.  Funny
how Lauda, Prost and Stewart in a video I have on GVilleneuve all rated him
as the best driver they ever raced against, far better than themselves (and
I was surprised, normally drivers never say they are worse than the others)

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Obviously the ref agreed.

I actually think Beckham has done remarkably well to get through this & is
playing some excellent football - when his UK career could have been in
tatters if he had folded under pressure. I wouldn't say this to any Man Utd
fans mind - doh!

Cheers

Tony

Murray Walker's top 10 of all time

1 Juan Manuel Fangio
2 Alain Prost
3 Ayrton Senna
4 Stirling Moss
5 Jim Clark
6 Michael Schumacher
7 Jackie Stewart
8 Niki Lauda
9 Alberto Ascari
10 Nigel Mansell

I think he deserves a mention, after all how many other people have
simultaniously been the F1 and Indycar champion (for a short overlap
time).

--
Suck The Goat

10. Mansell
 9. Ascari
 8. Lauda
 7. Moss
 6. Schumacher
 5. Clark
 4. ????
 3. Senna
 2. Prost
 1. Fangio

Any corrections?

Cheers!
John

I actually have a lot of time for Man Utd. Many players came up
through the ranks and they haven't gone out and spent massive fortunes
on foreign "name" players like certain London (and Glasgow!) teams I
could mention. I think much of the dislike for them comes from the way
commentators gush over them, which is very offputting, but for me they
are by far the most complete team (as opposed to a group of highly
talented individuals).

They couldn't have done it without a Scottish manager though..... :-)

Cheers!
John

It's fairly normal to wax lyrical about the dead - I bet if you spoke
to Prost one-to-one there's no way he'd consider Villeneuve a better
driver than him (as he wasn't).

Villeneuve was too rash, too idealistic and lacked the political guile
to be a truly top rated driver, and his record will attest to that.

Cheers!
John

What that misses is that even Moss has the strongest suspicion that
Fangio allowed him to win (however Fangio manufactured it in such a
way that even Moss is to this day unsure - unlike Mansell giving a
victory to Patrese in the most obvious manner possible to demonstrate
that he really could have won if he wanted).

Cheers!
John

On what oocassion raced Stewart (who retired in 1973) raced against
Gilleneuve?

--
   _____
 /_______\              .\\ a t t h e a d
I  XT /~~~~                    
I  500\_____       1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro
 \____/\__I_I      http://matthead.home.pages.de/

It's hard to compare drivers (or athletes in any sport, for that matter)
of different eras.  This is a pretty good list.  I think I would have
put Jim Clark right after Fangio, though.  Sterling Moss is problematic,
being the only non-champion of the bunch. He is generally regarded as
the best driver to never win the championship, however.  If he belongs
in the top 10, I think it would be at a place lower than four.  Mansell
seems a bit out of his league in this group, although his 31 wins is
impressive (fourth all-time).  I'd go with Jack Brabham, a three-time
champion in less *** equipment over Nigel. The Senna fans probably
would like to see Ayrton ahead of Prost.  Senna was probably the
quickest driver over a single lap of all (he certainly was the greatest
qualifier of all time), but Prost was more successful come raceday
(judging by wins, championships, and fastest race laps), so you could
argue this either way.

Dave Ewing

Thus being the difference between a racer and a driver ;-)

But something really good was posted on rasf1 when they were trying to
imagine themselves GVilleneuve as a racer, in the same team as Schumacher
instead of Jody.  The political and racing battles between both drivers at
that time was incredible, it would had been incredible now also, even if
Jody "won".

You can't compare his record still to others. People will know that he was
for two years in an incredible poor Ferrari, and as for the rest he was at
the top, he crashed or he had some car problems.  The best example to see
how he was superior to the drivers of this era is when you see the practice
times of then.  When all the other drivers were doing normal laptimes
without really pushing the car,  Gilles was always at the limit, race or
not, and almost always getting the best laptimes.

But if we do a list of the top 10 driver, I do hope he's at the top with
Nuvolari :)

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

No, thus being the difference between flamboyance and a winner.
Vileneuve had what, 6 victories, no championships and precious few
pole positions. Yes, he is martyred by the Ferrari fans and yes he was
great to watch, but that is no kind of qualification for "greatest of
all time". Chris Amon has more right to that title than Villeneuve -
heck his son Jacques has, having won a championship.

Like Senna in the Lotus? That car was horribly unreliable but you can
see the talent in what he could achieve - the pole positions. I don't
recall any such from Villeneuve.

My point exactly - in practice you don't NEED a great laptime, you
gain NOTHING by a great laptime, in fact you stree your carm show your
hand and risk damaging youself and your equipment. It's flamboyance.

Cheers!
John