rec.autos.simulators

No, what we need is CTFJ to detect the corner
we are approaching and adjusting the values
by itself.  ;-)
Or, maybe CTFJ could detect speed and the
corner we are approaching in GPL and apply
the brakes as necessary. ;-)

Joachim

I'm just a little bored while downloading :-)

Obviously CTFJ  is doing what it was designed to do,  but in my
opinion, it is like adding an illegal option to a sim.
They didn't have anti-lock brakes back in 1967 in the F1 cars, so why
are a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and using this utility to
control the brake lock-up. ?
I thought GPL was about trying to simulate a driving experience from
1967, so i for one won't be using an add-on that gives me anti-locking
brakes, just to be able to achieve a faster time at a given track.
This is a simulation guys,  if you want to add a device that gives
anti-locking brakes, change sims.!!
Half the fun in GPL, is coming to terms with braking and accelerating,
so why ruin it for the simple sake of better lap times through an
add-on that is totally out of context for the time period.
I am not complaining about the use of CTFJ as a centering device etc,
but to use it for limiting driver input for better braking, is totally
pathetic IMO..
Cheers from a standard brake user..
Ron

What do joystick users do that is illegal in terms of making their
braking times better.  ?
Nothing. !!    I think that anyone driving with a joystick is
handicapping themselves as far as braking efficiency goes, if they are
using the joystick for braking.
The type of controller that we all use is a personal preference and i
don't mind or care if you are using a joystick or a wheel etc..
What i don't agree with is the use of add-on programs that enable us to
by-pass what the sim is trying to give us.
As always, and as i stated earlier, that is my opinion...
You do have one good point though, if you are not running in a league
or doing hot lap competitions, then by all means, play the sim as you
want to..
I just can't see the point of having a sim with the physics of GPL,
only to downgrade it with the use of, what is basically, anti-lock
brakes...
It makes a mockery of the skill level of GPL drivers..
Cheers,
Ron

You are still taking this whole thread out of context Will.
I am not talking about what type of input device we use to control GPL
with, i am talking about a software program, that is altering the way
the physics engine in GPL was designed to respond to our inputs.
GPL is all about car control, how we modulate the brake and throttle to
achieve a skillfull balance of braking threshold and throttle response
to any given situation.

If the brakes can not lock, where is the skill in that ?

If that is your idea of fun, then so be it, but my idea of fun and
immersion is to try and keep what is in my power to keep as close to
1967 as i can possibly make it and that doesn't include a way to stop
me locking up my brakes.
Obviously our input devices cannot be compared to a 1967 GP car and we
all like different controllers, but i am not talking about controllers,
i am talking about changing the feel of the physics engine in GPL when
it comes to braking on the limit and keeping control of that limit in
an unrealistic way.
A tennis/squash ball under the brake pedal, still allows lock-ups, it
also gives a more realistic feel to the brake pedal.
Limiting the brake potientometer so it doesn't give full braking
response on maximum throw of the brake pedal, is like adding anti-lock
brakes  to a 1967 car,  which IMO is totally out of context with
developing the necessary skill to control these cars.

As far as having a controller that is out of context with the time
period in question, we are sitting at a computer screen, trying to
simulate as best as we can, given the limited feedback and suspension
of belief, a time period of 1967, where anti-lock brakes were not
available.
This time period was all about driver skill, so if i can keep that
skill level as close to reality as i can, given the fact i am sitting
in front of a computer screen etc..   then i will.

By the way, i am not putting down the program in question, as it is a
very usefull program, i just don't agree with the use it is being put
to in regards to GPL and braking techniques.
Like i said, where is the driver skill development in that. ?
As always,  this is my opinion only.  :)

Hope that helps you understand what i meant...
Cheers,
Ron

I think not talking about a antilock braking, we are talking
concretally about the Logitech Wingman Formula, that is a very good
wheel, but with a very very travel in the brake. With the help of CTFJ,
adjusting to 80-90 the brake it gives you more travel and can dose
better the brake, of course if you press the brake at the max you still
lock brakes.
I don't measure it, but think that in a LWFF until lock brake you have
a travel of 1 cm. With CTFJ gain some mm in this travel, but until lock
brake because still the brakes locks.

Said this, I think I'm not going to use this because I have the feeling
in the brake and if modificates I have to get this feeling again.

Regards
Javier Fernandez

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

CTFJ is not used for antilocking. The braking pedal of the LWFF is
quite bad. Way to short travel, and if the pedal is pushed at 2/3rd,
the wheels allready lock, giving is ridiculous short braking travel.
With CTFJ we can make the wheels lock when we have the braking pedal
pushed to the max, giving us much more braking pedal travel.
And yes, making it easier for us.
But it is exactly the same as using a better set of pedals with more
range, like CH pedals or the microsoft pedals.
You can setup CTFJ so that yo wheels will not lock. But if someone
does this, he has a big disadvantage, since he won't be braking for
100%. On top of that, the braking travel needed differs from track to
track, and from section to section.
I setup CTFJ with the braking range set to -90. This gives me 10% more
braking travel, while the wheels still lock up under all
circumstances. It just gives me more braking pedal travel.

I bet if Clark would have had logitech pedals in his car without CTFJ,
he would have died on his first race.

What I do consider a little bit cheating though is using a joystick in
combination with pedals. This gives best of both worlds, most record
laps are achieved with this combo, but using a joystick if really way
out of context.

Andre

On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:14:12 -0500, "Greg Cisko"

Hi Ron,

Well, I seem to have started a bit of controversy out here. 8). I'm
not really active in this community, what you guys decide WRT to using
CTFJ is up to, but I thought I might be able to give a bit better
technical perspective on the thing.

CTFJ can't really supply 'anti-lock' brakes in the true sense. I know
I used the term in the DOC file, an unfortunate choice of words I
suppose, but anti-lock brakes need to sense that the tire is at the
limit of adhesion and modulate the braking force automatically to hold
it at that limit, regardless of how hard you press on the pedal. CTFJ
doesn't, and indeed couldn't possibly, do that. It would need some way
to know where the limit of adhesion was and when the tire was
approaching that limit. There's just no way for it to know that
without tapping into the sim (which it does not do). CTFJ is more akin
to reducing the diameter of the master cylinder (by about 8% for the
the 85%-90% settings most are reporting). You'll have to move the
pedal further to get to wheel lock, but once you get there, CTFJ won't
do a thing to prevent it from happening.

It is true, I suppose, that you could adjust CTFJ so that the wheels
will never lock, but it would be more like putting a block of wood
under the pedal so you couldn't push it all the way. If you did do
that, you'd be running with less than full braking ability even under
the quickest braking conditions and fade, etc., would make the
situation worse by further reducing your braking ability. It seems to
me, as Andre mentions downthread a bit, that's not going to give
optimum performance either.

You hit the nail on the head, really. 100% braking for 100% of travel
under all conditions is going to be the optimum. Either side of that
and you'll lose some control, either through reduced maximum braking
ability or through reduced pedal travel to wheel lock. CTFJ will let
you achieve that optimum, but it can't really do any more than that.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

Hi Bob,
No problems at all with your program Bob, i think it does a great job
and should help a lot of us sim racers who are having problems  with
controller inputs..
Thanks for the effort and time you have put into this program and for
providing it as freeware to the end user.
I was just commenting on how i personally would not use it for a
primitive sort of anti-lock braking sytem in GPL..
Controversy??    never,  good fun...   :)
Keep up the good work Bob, it is appreciated..
Cheers,
Ron

It is quite bad in your opinion. IMHO there is nothing wrong with
the pedals. But then again maybe I am able to compensate better?

--

Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Ron,

Anti-lock braking systems are active and automatic systems that modulates
braking several times per second automatically to prevent wheel lock under
heavey/panic braking situations.

CTFJ does not offer Anti-lock braking in any way shape or form.  What it
does is allow me to do is adjust the braking axis so that I have more usable
travel.  I am still able to lock up the wheels in GPL with my CTFJ adjusted
braking axis, and for me, it makes it a MUCH more enjoyable sim now that the
brake pedal (feels) right.

I wonder what the purists would say about people who race/qualify with 28lbs
of air in their tires.  Sure, it's fast if you can keep it on the road, but
was it a common practice in 1967?

Brad.

Ron, I think you may be looking at this issue from a different viewpoint.

CTFJ does not work like any "active" braking aid such as ABS braking.

What CTFJ does is allow you to modify the length of your braking axis on the
controller. Think of this as modifying the length or throw of the brake
pedal cable on your 1967 F1 car. Seems fairly realistic to me, I'm sure the
drivers probably had input on the adjustment of how easily the brakes would
lock by having the mechanics adjust the cables or brake assemblies, no one
would want to drive a car with the brakes set to lock when the pedal was just
halfway down.

Speaking as someone who doesn't use CTFJ but had to do the reverse of
this manually when calibrating my T2 pedals for GP2/ICR2/Nascar2 and a
lot of older sims where my gas pedal would not always give 100% throttle
when held down all the way. By calibrating the pedals just under a 100%
I could be sure that the sim would see full throttle when I put the
pedal to full. I wish there had been something like CTFJ back then.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

Where do I download this thing? I want to see how it works with my 1967
joystick <G>

Mark

I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Joystick, and I would never say that
braking is my problem, the exact opposite.  I use the thottle lever on
the side of the device as the brake and the push stick forward for
throttle (stick side to side for steering).

With my finger down the slot in front of the slider I have wonderful
brake control (and can accelerate simultaneously to trail brake).  My
problem is that on a race of any length my arm gets extremely tired
from steering and little muscle twitches throw off the accuracy of
steering.

The digital nature of the joystick makes calibration wonderful (ie it
never drifts and I don't need to recalibrate, and it is rock steady
when at rest)

I did try a cheap wheel and pedals and I can hardly drive the car
Alan

http://www.chandler.u-net.com

[snip]

I disagree - see my reply to post a few messages back in this thread.

With the joystick I use, thottle and brake is much better than I could
ever get with pedals.  Its the steering (particularly accuracy and how
tired it makes your one arm) that is the problem.

Also I know its not 1967 realistic - I did by a cheapish (Thrustmaster
Spring) wheel but then with the PC on my desk the seat is a lot higher
than in a racing car (ie my feet would need to work the pedals from a
much higher angle) and with a wheel screwed to the desk in front of my
keyboard and monitor with my arms at a comfortable straightness I sit
so far back I can hardly see the screen even with my glasses on <vbg>.
Compared to even driving my own car it was horrible.

Alan

http://www.chandler.u-net.com

Goodhaye Brad,
Firstly let me say i know exactly what anti-lock brakes are, i am a
mechanic and i spend at least 1 hour a day checking and servicing
anti-lock braking systems, as part of our regular vehicle service
program.   :)
I simply used the term, "anti-lock braking"  as a way of saying what i
wanted to say about a program that takes the skill level out of braking
in regards to GPL...
I know what CTFJ does and what it is used for and when it is used for
it's intended purpose, it is a great addition to any game.
What i was saying, and what most of you have took out of context is the
ability to use CTFJ to take the skill out of braking in GPL, by
adjusting the braking pot so as it cannot operate at it's maximum
reading.  This, when it is used in this fashion, effectively acts as a
crude form of anti-lock brakes and to me, takes all the required skill
out of learning good braking procedures.
By the way, an adjustment to limit the brake pedal travel in the 1967
GP cars was not incorporated in that era of racing at all, it simply
boiled down to driver skill.
Regards people using 28 lbs pressure in their tyres, all i can say to
that is, if they are good enough and skillfull enough to keep the car
on the road and under full control with 28 lbs pressure in the tyres,
then i don't have a problem with that at all.
Yes, it was a normal procedure back in 1967 (not just in 67 either, it
is still used today) to up the tyre pressure a bit when qualifying so
as to have less rolling resistance and ultimately a better terminal
speed.  The better drivers have used that method for getting that
little extra over the opposition ever since inflatable tyres were
incorporated onto racing cars.
That is in no way cheating in GPL, other than making it more difficult
to control and hence, more skillfull input by the driver is needed.
LowRider setups,  now that is a different story and one i am glad to
see has been partly alleviated by the upcoming patch.  I am just sorry
it wasn't taken further, 2.5" is still too low..   IMO.  :)
Cheers,
Ron