rec.autos.simulators

by **Tim** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:31:45

... it's the tracks.

I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open
***pits of Winston Cup cars.
The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In
NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall.

I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact
with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit
like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead.
What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're
never going to see them due to cost.

Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete
wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved
everyone killed in the last few years.
The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the
way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe
would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't.

Tim

by **Incubu** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:20:02

I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I
think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inch thick
*** infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the *** may
have been tyres.

by **Brian Carabe** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:43:57

From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various ways to
dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying off the
way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energy that
is diverted away from the driver.

Brian

by D » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:38:15

was at Rio..conveyor belt in front of tires.
I believe in reaction to Blundells crash there.

> I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I
> think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inch
thick
> *** infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the *** may
> have been tyres.

> > ... it's the tracks.

> > I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open
> >***pits of Winston Cup cars.
> > The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In
> > NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall.

> > I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact
> > with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit
> > like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead.
> > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're
> > never going to see them due to cost.

> > Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete
> > wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved
> > everyone killed in the last few years.
> > The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the
> > way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe
> > would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't.

> > Tim

by **Dave St.Ong** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:49:40

BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at
horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or
sand....the best runoff is asphalt...

Dave

by **Marc Collin** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:03:02

Something like that would work perfectly...it just needs to be covered with
a thin steel/aluminium sheet or some other material so that the closed-wheel
cars don't get "caught" on it as they rub against it when they are driving
parallel to the wall. Quite tricky and expensive, I am sure...but obviously
worth it.

Marc.

> I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I
> think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inch
thick
> *** infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the *** may
> have been tyres.

> > ... it's the tracks.

> > I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open
> >***pits of Winston Cup cars.
> > The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In
> > NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall.

> > I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact
> > with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit
> > like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead.
> > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're
> > never going to see them due to cost.

> > Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete
> > wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved
> > everyone killed in the last few years.
> > The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the
> > way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe
> > would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't.

> > Tim

by **Bill Met** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:15:41

A quick note on this. There was an article in Racecar Engineering on this
wall a few years back. In the article, one of the egineers that helped
design the system stated that the effectiveness of the wall was very
dependent on the radius of the turns, expected angles of impact, etc...
So while this system is very promising it is, unfortunately, not a
cure-all for every track. You would think that it would certainly help in
some of them though.

-Bill

>was at Rio..conveyor belt in front of tires.
>I believe in reaction to Blundells crash there.

>> I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I
>> think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inch
>thick
>> *** infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the *** may
>> have been tyres.

--
| "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

by **Tim** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:18:15

On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge"

>BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at
>horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or
>sand....the best runoff is asphalt...

Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this.

Tim

by **Tim** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:22:54

On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:43:57 GMT, "Brian Carabee"

>From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various ways to
>dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying off the
>way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energy that
>is diverted away from the driver.

True, but in Earnhardts accident, the enery was dissipated instantly.
That was sort of my point. No amount of breakaway parts or a carbon
fiber tub is going to prevent a 180 to 0 MPH impact against concrete.

Tim

by **Sideshow Bo** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 03:55:56

>The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit
>like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead.

Valid point.

Isn't that essentially what happened to Senna? I don't mean the actual mode
of injury but just the hitting of the wall.

I don't have the footage here at work but I seem to remember Senna hit a
relatively unprotected wall almost head-on.

Dale.

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 04:57:15

> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge"

> >BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at
> >horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or
> >sand....the best runoff is asphalt...

> Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this.

> Tim

From F1 at Silverstone. Michael Schumacher blew the turn at the end of
the
hanger straight. (official reason was mechanical failure) He bounced
through the gravel trap and hit the tire wall at almost the same speed he
left the raceway. Further back in time Nigel Mansell spun off the road
while attempting a pass. His car did a 360 and drifted back onto the track,
then amazingly, the tires gripped and he took off...this all happend in
about 2 seconds..on/off/on and the the thing was *** around till it
caught
the asphalt. Next: California Speedway. Two CART drivers, in separate
accidents, lost grip coming out of the last turn, they both slide over the
grass infield with virtually NO loss of speed. One of those drivers was
killed by the impact.(Greg Moore).
The old school thinking was gravel was the best way to grab a car and
stop it. But the cars these days grip asphalt like you won't believe. A
large asphalt runoff area would stop a car rather than bounce it like gravel
traps do these days.
dave henrie

by **Wosc** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:51:52

Yeah the concrete runoff really helped Senna out.

JB

by **Power Post 20** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:43:27

The paved area along the backstretch at Talladega slows the cars a lot
more than the grass did. Also, they paved it going into turn 1.

>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge"

>> >BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at
>> >horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or
>> >sand....the best runoff is asphalt...

>> Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this.

>> Tim
> From F1 at Silverstone. Michael Schumacher blew the turn at the end of
>the
>hanger straight. (official reason was mechanical failure) He bounced
>through the gravel trap and hit the tire wall at almost the same speed he
>left the raceway. Further back in time Nigel Mansell spun off the road
>while attempting a pass. His car did a 360 and drifted back onto the track,
>then amazingly, the tires gripped and he took off...this all happend in
>about 2 seconds..on/off/on and the the thing was *** around till it
>caught
>the asphalt. Next: California Speedway. Two CART drivers, in separate
>accidents, lost grip coming out of the last turn, they both slide over the
>grass infield with virtually NO loss of speed. One of those drivers was
>killed by the impact.(Greg Moore).
> The old school thinking was gravel was the best way to grab a car and
>stop it. But the cars these days grip asphalt like you won't believe. A
>large asphalt runoff area would stop a car rather than bounce it like gravel
>traps do these days.
>dave henrie

by **Joachim Blu** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:55:44

Hi!

Senna wasn't killed by the impact itself but by parts of the front right
wheel suspension that pierced the visor of his helmet and caused fatal head
and brain injuries.
I've seen the crash of Dale from various perspectives now and I am sure that
it also wasn't the impact itself that killed him but maybe some part of the
car that struck him.

Regards
Crash

by **Alan Conceic** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:09:15

All the energy dissapating materials in the world didn't help Sam Schmidt,
Scott Brayton, etc. Good luck finding a incident similar to Earnhardt's, at the
same speed, in which the driver survived or did not recieve massive injuries.

-
Alan

Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001:
"The Last American Hero"
R.I.P.

rec.autos.simulators

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

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