rec.autos.simulators

In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss.

They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says:

"The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these
options you cant go as fast!  That seems to be the problem.

Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH)  and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont
think so!  But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed
with these turned off.  

Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers.  Im sure the guys in VRW Cup
group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net.  KK seems
unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss.  If this was so with the caliber of drivers
surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK.  

All go on further to say that using these in  league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection
as its not part of results or disabled in the game.  The honor system doesnt work 100%.

I have tested the aides on and off.  I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on
the tracks I tested.   Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them  as
selections in the *** mode in the next patch.  This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control
devices, but that's the brakes.

To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated!   Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have
been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink".

I believe this issue is a lot about nothing.  With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have
tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said..

"The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

Don Wilshe
888 588 9207

I don't know, it seems a certain "Sport Allen" beat King once huh?  LOL.  

  In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss.

  They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says:

  "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

  What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these
  options you cant go as fast!  That seems to be the problem.

  Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH)  and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont
  think so!  But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed
  with these turned off.  

  Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers.  Im sure the guys in VRW Cup
  group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net.  KK seems
  unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss.  If this was so with the caliber of drivers
  surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK.  

  All go on further to say that using these in  league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection
  as its not part of results or disabled in the game.  The honor system doesnt work 100%.

  I have tested the aides on and off.  I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on
  the tracks I tested.   Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them  as
  selections in the *** mode in the next patch.  This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control
  devices, but that's the brakes.

  To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated!   Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have
  been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink".

  I believe this issue is a lot about nothing.  With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have
  tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said..

  "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

  Don Wilshe
  888 588 9207

The point of the "cheats" is that they allow you to run a much looser car that will save the rf for a longer period.  I have seen this online myself.  I ran a Darlington where the leader was not running faster than me, he just never died, after the race he told me his rf doesn't go yellow until lap 43 which to say the least is a heck of a lot longer than mine.  I came to find out that this team uses traction control.  I don't know if it makes you faster, just better long.  If there is no advantage then there should be no problem letting servers retrict it's use.  There are much more vile cheats out there with which you are very aware that will shape what 2k3 will be all about.

Chad

  I don't know, it seems a certain "Sport Allen" beat King once huh?  LOL.  

    In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss.

    They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says:

    "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

    What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these
    options you cant go as fast!  That seems to be the problem.

    Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH)  and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont
    think so!  But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed
    with these turned off.  

    Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers.  Im sure the guys in VRW Cup
    group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net.  KK seems
    unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss.  If this was so with the caliber of drivers
    surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK.  

    All go on further to say that using these in  league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection
    as its not part of results or disabled in the game.  The honor system doesnt work 100%.

    I have tested the aides on and off.  I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on
    the tracks I tested.   Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them  as
    selections in the *** mode in the next patch.  This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control
    devices, but that's the brakes.

    To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated!   Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have
    been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink".

    I believe this issue is a lot about nothing.  With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have
    tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said..

    "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

    Don Wilshe
    888 588 9207

Now I used to have a problem with RF yellows.. until i started to design all my setups with 1650 Forward weight and move the
weights forward until i have even RIGHT SIDE tire wear.    46 laps...  heck Im still GREEN on all 4 after 57 laps..   Tire management
is criticall..

don

  The point of the "cheats" is that they allow you to run a much looser car that will save the rf for a longer period.  I have seen this online myself.  I ran a Darlington where the leader was not running faster than me, he just never died, after the race he told me his rf doesn't go yellow until lap 43 which to say the least is a heck of a lot longer than mine.  I came to find out that this team uses traction control.  I don't know if it makes you faster, just better long.  If there is no advantage then there should be no problem letting servers retrict it's use.  There are much more vile cheats out there with which you are very aware that will shape what 2k3 will be all about.

  Chad

since the day I bought it a year ago.
steering assistance and 100% linearity.
time in a year since I bought it!
steering assistance as part of wheel calibration.
"experienced" leagues who want to ban this important calibration

Using aids to gain an UNFAIR advantage is pure chickenshit.  So because person a can beat you, you have to relagate to turn on aids to keep up?  Why not PRACTICE and get better?  And I'm plenty beatable in VRW, as the stats show.

Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it?  Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

  Now I used to have a problem with RF yellows.. until i started to design all my setups with 1650 Forward weight and move the
  weights forward until i have even RIGHT SIDE tire wear.    46 laps...  heck Im still GREEN on all 4 after 57 laps..   Tire management
  is criticall..

  don

    The point of the "cheats" is that they allow you to run a much looser car that will save the rf for a longer period.  I have seen this online myself.  I ran a Darlington where the leader was not running faster than me, he just never died, after the race he told me his rf doesn't go yellow until lap 43 which to say the least is a heck of a lot longer than mine.  I came to find out that this team uses traction control.  I don't know if it makes you faster, just better long.  If there is no advantage then there should be no problem letting servers retrict it's use.  There are much more vile cheats out there with which you are very aware that will shape what 2k3 will be all about.

    Chad

In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing
some fuss.
<SNIP Don's Nice Post>

While I agree that the options should slow drivers down, it's not exactly
fair to do so. Take myself for example. My wheel is out of commission, so
I'm stuck with using a joystick to race. I'm not sure if you've ever driven
NR2002 (can't speak for 2003 in this aspect, aside from the demo) with a
joystick, but the game forces you to have Anti-Lock Brakes and Traction
Control on (If someone has a method for turning these off, I'd like to hear
it :). I'd like to *** the person who gave clearance for the idea.

I'm the sort of driver who, depending on my mood, likes to drive into the
corners hard. When you get knocked into the grass and sideways, or into a
180, you can't turn the car back around until it's in the range of 20 MPH.
Another way it slows me down is when I over drive a corner and some AI
knocks me out of control...my car is stuck at 45 degrees until I hold
opposite lock for however long (usually a few seconds) to regain control. I
do not like this. Papy, I want full control of my car for offline racing (at
least).

Braking is a general pain in the ass with a joystick, too. I /always/
overshoot my pit box by at least a few feet because the brakes didn't want
to lock up. With a wheel, I had no such problem. In fact, I would rather
have the option to turn these two on and off. Also a new braking system
would be nice. I want to lock up my brakes after I hold down the designated
brake key for so long.

Do I think people should be using these options (and the ones you listed)
for a intentional gain in performance? No. Yet, the ultimate responsibility
lies with the programmers (and/or management). Just the act of forcing some
of these options on are going to cause problems between players. You can
call me (and countless others) a cheater because Papy is forcing me to have
two options on.

But to do it right, they would have to.... *gasp*.... filter the race list
based on un/accepted assists. Because, and you can't ignore this, they
rightfully paid for their copy. It's only fair they get to play the game
with however many assists on that they want...or are comfortable with. If
the assists make them /faster/ than the *** drivers, then blame Papy.

For some online drivers, they like to knowingly cheat. For others, not.
They're just not skilled enough to have assists off. IMO, to correct this
problem, Papy needs to address the situation with a patch.

---
"To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated!
Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have
been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be
allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink"."
---
Yes, Don, I agree with you 110%!! Make it a option for offline drivers, keep
it off for online drivers (or whatever the community deems best - See above
reference to race list filtering ;). I'm sick and tired of it, too.

.
..
...
....
.....
/Food For Thought Mode On

But then again, why shouldn't people with assists on be allowed to race
competatively with those without? ;-)

-Will

 I would like to believe I am a true, dedicated Sim racer . I'm involved in Sim Racing because I truly love auto racing, and in my particular case, Stockcar Racing. I personally am not the least bit interested in any kind of Video *** and therefore hate hearing 2K3 referred to as anything other than a "SIM" ( but that is my personal opinion)
This Software (N2003) gives me the opportunity to experience my sport through the use of a Very Good Computer simulation made possible by the talented people at Papy.
The LAST thing I'm going to do is cheapen that experience by using any kind of driving aid that Papy has added to SELL the software to people who need that sort of help.

The solution to this ongoing debate is simple...... Separate the "Arcade/Video Game Players" from the  "Sim Racers"
We've already made one step in the right direction by giving league admins. the ability to block roof-riders,... now all we need is the same ability to block "AIDS users !"
I'm so disappointed it wasn't included with this (the last) build.
I'm sure if we all get off our duffs with an email campaign and insist that a this type of fix is added in a patch, it will happen, or maybe one of the talented individuals who have given us all those great utilities, could also do it.

Then the  video game players can form their own leagues and conduct themselves in any way they like, and the true Simmers (those of us who want to experience a true racing simulation) can race on a level playing field knowing that we're all on the same page, and not having cheaters forced on us by a loophole in the software.

We reap what we sew, and as long as we keep letting it happen, we will continue to be beaten by people who can't do it any other way but the "easy way ! !"

I will add in closing that....... IMHO, the people who will have the loudest opposition to this post will be the very people in question.

-=JL

  In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss.

  They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says:

  "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

  What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these
  options you cant go as fast!  That seems to be the problem.

  Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH)  and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont
  think so!  But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed
  with these turned off.  

  Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers.  Im sure the guys in VRW Cup
  group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net.  KK seems
  unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss.  If this was so with the caliber of drivers
  surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK.  

  All go on further to say that using these in  league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection
  as its not part of results or disabled in the game.  The honor system doesnt work 100%.

  I have tested the aides on and off.  I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on
  the tracks I tested.   Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them  as
  selections in the *** mode in the next patch.  This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control
  devices, but that's the brakes.

  To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated!   Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have
  been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink".

  I believe this issue is a lot about nothing.  With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have
  tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said..

  "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently  with this option turned off"

  Don Wilshe
  888 588 9207

    Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because
we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose
fault is that?  I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided
in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car
weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups.
    By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of
cheating you better accuse me.
    Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability.

    Pete

  Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it?  Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

Great Setups Pete....

Thanks

No the secret is out.!!

Don Wilshe

PS.    Been getting my best setups from you now pete for what 10 years.    Whats KK been racing online
5 years.   Kids know everything dont they!!    They get beat and than they start name calling.  *** get
beat and they go to work!   Thats the way it was because the new group came here 5 years ago and
there are some bad apples!

Don

      Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because
  we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose
  fault is that?  I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided
  in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car
  weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups.
      By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of
  cheating you better accuse me.
      Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability.

      Pete

    Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it?  Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

I guess you are unaware of Don's past?  He was caught cheating on TEN.  Try not to lecture me.  Thanks.

      Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because
  we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose
  fault is that?  I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided
  in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car
  weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups.
      By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of
  cheating you better accuse me.
      Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability.

      Pete

    Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it?  Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

I've been racing 5 years?  Wow news to me, I though I started on N1.  And I guess 22 is considered a kid to you, being 60 and all.

  Great Setups Pete....

  Thanks

  No the secret is out.!!

  Don Wilshe

  PS.    Been getting my best setups from you now pete for what 10 years.    Whats KK been racing online
  5 years.   Kids know everything dont they!!    They get beat and than they start name calling.  *** get
  beat and they go to work!   Thats the way it was because the new group came here 5 years ago and
  there are some bad apples!

  Don

        Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because
    we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose
    fault is that?  I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided
    in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car
    weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups.
        By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of
    cheating you better accuse me.
        Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability.

        Pete

      Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it?  Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

Oh and also, did you make that miraculous setup that allows you to flip your car at Homestead in the turns?  And did you make the setup that can run in the 3rd lane up high, and pass 2 packs of cars with no draft?   Did you make those?

      Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because
  we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose
  fault is that?  I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided
  in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car
  weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups.
      By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of
  cheating you better accuse me.
      Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability.

      Pete

    Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it?  Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.