rec.autos.simulators

by **Larr** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:35:00

MSFFW.

I'll have to look tonight at home...

-Larry

> Larry,

> What kind of wheel do you have ? (I assume you have a wheel), and now that
> you have spent time on this, can you give us any tips on a decent setup
(at
> least what worked for you).

> Many thanks,
> Todd

> > Frederickson,

> > You need to spend a LOT of time with the controller settings. It took
me
> a
> > good 2 hours to get a handle on what to put where.

> > When you find the 'spot', I think you'll find it far more pleasing.

> > It's really quite good once you get it figured out.

> > -Larry

> > > Bellsouth hasnt been letting me post lately, anyway...

> > > Thunder isnt so bad. It's bad, but not so bad. First of all, the
overall
> > > presentation, from the menu's to the way you pick opponents, etc. is
> just
> > > not very well thought out, and just not as useful as in Papy games.
It's
> > not
> > > such a big deal.

> > > The graphics are great. I dont care what anyone says, they are better
> than
> > > N2002 graphics, especially if you can turn on antialiasing on your
> > > videocard.

> > > The biggest problem in my opinion, is driving the car. It's almost as
if
> i
> > > have to guess how the tires are gonna react instead of having a feel
for
> > how
> > > they'd react based on how im driving....

> > > what i mean is in N2002, when i step on the gas the weight shifts
back,
> > and
> > > when i brake the weight shifts forward, and the car reacts
accordingly.
> on
> > > NT2003, understeer and oversteer seem to be based more on pure speed
> than
> > > the force on each tire. I never know if my car is gonna push or spin.

> > > The second thing that bothers me, and more than the physics itself, is
> the
> > > control of the steering wheel. It wont let you set to 0% speed
> > sensitivity,
> > > and its almost impossible to get your car going straight. I find
myself
> > > constantly adjusting left and right like grandma on the highway. Then
> > once
> > > I do get in a turn, If i hold the wheel steady it seems like all of a
> > sudden
> > > my cars turning radius will change, as if i did steer, and i have to
> > adjust
> > > again, which tends to make my car go allover the place. In my opinion,
> if
> > > the steering input functioned the same as in a Papy game, NT2003 would
> be
> > a
> > > helluva lot more fun to drive.

> > > The best time ive had so far is on Atlanta driving in a pack of AI
cars,
> > > because from what ive seen it seems to be the only track where the
> > banking,
> > > car, and steering all seem to agree, so the car is a bit more
> predictable.

> > > Now, all my driving has been done with the included setups, which dont
> > seem
> > > to be very good. Is there anywhere to download better setups ?

by **Larr** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:37:05

I don't think so...

I believe I thrashed those sliders from one extreme to the other, and it
made a marked difference in the wheel.

I'm still working on these.

It sure would help if someone would tell us what the hell they are really
supposed to be doing for us!

-Larry

> > but i dont think there are any axis sensitivity.... there are ones that
> say
> > digital steering, digital brake, etc...
> > do these function for non-keyboard ?

> There was some discussion about this for F1 2k2 and as far as I can
> tell, the digital sliders are all for the keyboard. If you want to sort
out
> NT, then just dig through RAS and the F1 2k2 forums for controller
> problems...it was all hashed out pretty throroughly.
> dave henrie

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:43:19

Yet one more example of the great UI in F1-2002. :-)

All the settings on the controller rates screen are for digital (keys),
except the speed sensitivity. In their defense, it IS the only one not
referred to as "digital" on the screen. An interesting side note is that
the in-game setting doesn't match the value in the PLR file. A value of
.50000 in the PLR file shows as 63% on the controller rates screen. Isn't
that special...

SB

> I don't think so...

> I believe I thrashed those sliders from one extreme to the other, and it
> made a marked difference in the wheel.

> I'm still working on these.

> It sure would help if someone would tell us what the hell they are really
> supposed to be doing for us!

> -Larry

> > > but i dont think there are any axis sensitivity.... there are ones
that
> > say
> > > digital steering, digital brake, etc...
> > > do these function for non-keyboard ?

> > There was some discussion about this for F1 2k2 and as far as I
can
> > tell, the digital sliders are all for the keyboard. If you want to sort
> out
> > NT, then just dig through RAS and the F1 2k2 forums for controller
> > problems...it was all hashed out pretty throroughly.
> > dave henrie

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:14:54

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:58:10 -0400, "ymenard"

>But then again, you shouldn't even *have* to plow into editing by yourself a
>.plr file to make it that way. It's bad programming, bad development
>choice, bad thinking.

You don't have to edit to turn off speed sensitivity. If you set the
slider in the game to 10%, the plr file will show that it's set to
zero. I have no idea why it's like this.

Jason

by **Haqsa** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:31:57

Very true, but since I haven't had very many games lately that didn't
benefit from a little config file hacking, it's not a big deal to me.
Even Papy games are subject to this - why isn't the "steering hack" in a
menu?

by **David Ciemn** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:00:42

OK..I tweaked a couple of things in the .plr file. Changed steering help
functionality and speed sensitive steering.

My TSW is immediately alive in the game. However now it is so twitchy I spin
very easily. The wheel see saws back and forth. However I am happy because
it is a starting place. A place to break away from those bogus default
settings.

What can I do within the controller settings screen to take away this see
saw effects (or any other tweaks you can think of)?

I want to be able to enjoy this game. maybe this is a start. My wheel
finally has life.

DC

[ DRIVING AIDS ]
Steering Help="0"
Steering Help Functionality="0" // 0 = new help, 1 = new help + grip, 2 =
original, 3 = original + grip
Throttle Control="0"
Brake Help="0"
Antilock Brakes="0"
Spin Recovery="0"
Invulnerability="0"
Autopit="0"
Auto Pace Lap="0"
Opposite Lock="0"
Stability Control="0"
No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car (except autopit and auto
pace lap)
Pitcrew Push="1" // When out of fuel in pitlane, allows pitcrew to push car
(use throttle and gear selection to direct)
Auto Clutch="1"
Auto Lift="0" // Whether to automatically lift with manual shifting but
auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
Auto Blip="1" // Whether to automatically blip with manual shifting but
auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
Shift Mode="0"
Auto Reverse="0"
Speed Sensitive Steering="0.00000"
Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal
Telemetry Rate="2"
Telemetry In Race="1"
Telemetry EXE="telemetry\nt2003_telemetry.exe"
Telemetry File="telemetry\telemetry.spt"

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:18:28

Once again I have to use F1 2k2 as an example since I don't have Thunder.
But go to your individual setups and REDUCE the Steering lock percentage
from whatever ISI sets it too down to about half.
For example. Most setups in F1 2k2 have a default value of 20 degrees of
steering lock. Reduce that to 12 to 14 degrees and the car is much more
easily controlled. (sharp corners are a problem however..Marty might need
more than 14 degrees)
I don't know exactly the numbers Thunder uses but it should work pretty
much the same.
dave henrie

> OK..I tweaked a couple of things in the .plr file. Changed steering help
> functionality and speed sensitive steering.

> My TSW is immediately alive in the game. However now it is so twitchy I
spin
> very easily. The wheel see saws back and forth. However I am happy because
> it is a starting place. A place to break away from those bogus default
> settings.

> What can I do within the controller settings screen to take away this see
> saw effects (or any other tweaks you can think of)?

> I want to be able to enjoy this game. maybe this is a start. My wheel
> finally has life.

> DC

> [ DRIVING AIDS ]
> Steering Help="0"
> Steering Help Functionality="0" // 0 = new help, 1 = new help + grip, 2 =
> original, 3 = original + grip
> Throttle Control="0"
> Brake Help="0"
> Antilock Brakes="0"
> Spin Recovery="0"
> Invulnerability="0"
> Autopit="0"
> Auto Pace Lap="0"
> Opposite Lock="0"
> Stability Control="0"
> No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car (except autopit and
auto
> pace lap)
> Pitcrew Push="1" // When out of fuel in pitlane, allows pitcrew to push
car
> (use throttle and gear selection to direct)
> Auto Clutch="1"
> Auto Lift="0" // Whether to automatically lift with manual shifting but
> auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
> Auto Blip="1" // Whether to automatically blip with manual shifting but
> auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
> Shift Mode="0"
> Auto Reverse="0"
> Speed Sensitive Steering="0.00000"
> Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal
> Telemetry Rate="2"
> Telemetry In Race="1"
> Telemetry EXE="telemetry\nt2003_telemetry.exe"
> Telemetry File="telemetry\telemetry.spt"

> > Bellsouth hasnt been letting me post lately, anyway...

> > Thunder isnt so bad. It's bad, but not so bad. First of all, the overall
> > presentation, from the menu's to the way you pick opponents, etc. is
just
> > not very well thought out, and just not as useful as in Papy games. It's
> not
> > such a big deal.

> > The graphics are great. I dont care what anyone says, they are better
than
> > N2002 graphics, especially if you can turn on antialiasing on your
> > videocard.

> > The biggest problem in my opinion, is driving the car. It's almost as if
i
> > have to guess how the tires are gonna react instead of having a feel for
> how
> > they'd react based on how im driving....

> > what i mean is in N2002, when i step on the gas the weight shifts back,
> and
> > when i brake the weight shifts forward, and the car reacts accordingly.
on
> > NT2003, understeer and oversteer seem to be based more on pure speed
than
> > the force on each tire. I never know if my car is gonna push or spin.

> > The second thing that bothers me, and more than the physics itself, is
the
> > control of the steering wheel. It wont let you set to 0% speed
> sensitivity,
> > and its almost impossible to get your car going straight. I find myself
> > constantly adjusting left and right like grandma on the highway. Then
> once
> > I do get in a turn, If i hold the wheel steady it seems like all of a
> sudden
> > my cars turning radius will change, as if i did steer, and i have to
> adjust
> > again, which tends to make my car go allover the place. In my opinion, i
f
> > the steering input functioned the same as in a Papy game, NT2003 would
be
> a
> > helluva lot more fun to drive.

> > The best time ive had so far is on Atlanta driving in a pack of AI cars,
> > because from what ive seen it seems to be the only track where the
> banking,
> > car, and steering all seem to agree, so the car is a bit more
predictable.

> > Now, all my driving has been done with the included setups, which dont
> seem
> > to be very good. Is there anywhere to download better setups ?

by **David Ciemn** » Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:08:01

Dave... The knowledge you drop here seems endless :o)

Seemed to work pretty good. Still a little squirrley coming out of corners.
I will lose it if I am a little heavy on the throttle. Must work on that a
bit. Any other tips or suggestions please pass along.

May be hope with this game after all.

DC

> Once again I have to use F1 2k2 as an example since I don't have
Thunder.
> But go to your individual setups and REDUCE the Steering lock percentage
> from whatever ISI sets it too down to about half.
> For example. Most setups in F1 2k2 have a default value of 20 degrees
of
> steering lock. Reduce that to 12 to 14 degrees and the car is much more
> easily controlled. (sharp corners are a problem however..Marty might need
> more than 14 degrees)
> I don't know exactly the numbers Thunder uses but it should work pretty
> much the same.
> dave henrie

> > OK..I tweaked a couple of things in the .plr file. Changed steering help
> > functionality and speed sensitive steering.

> > My TSW is immediately alive in the game. However now it is so twitchy I
> spin
> > very easily. The wheel see saws back and forth. However I am happy
because
> > it is a starting place. A place to break away from those bogus default
> > settings.

> > What can I do within the controller settings screen to take away this
see
> > saw effects (or any other tweaks you can think of)?

> > I want to be able to enjoy this game. maybe this is a start. My wheel
> > finally has life.

> > DC

> > [ DRIVING AIDS ]
> > Steering Help="0"
> > Steering Help Functionality="0" // 0 = new help, 1 = new help + grip, 2
=
> > original, 3 = original + grip
> > Throttle Control="0"
> > Brake Help="0"
> > Antilock Brakes="0"
> > Spin Recovery="0"
> > Invulnerability="0"
> > Autopit="0"
> > Auto Pace Lap="0"
> > Opposite Lock="0"
> > Stability Control="0"
> > No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car (except autopit and
> auto
> > pace lap)
> > Pitcrew Push="1" // When out of fuel in pitlane, allows pitcrew to push
> car
> > (use throttle and gear selection to direct)
> > Auto Clutch="1"
> > Auto Lift="0" // Whether to automatically lift with manual shifting but
> > auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
> > Auto Blip="1" // Whether to automatically blip with manual shifting but
> > auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
> > Shift Mode="0"
> > Auto Reverse="0"
> > Speed Sensitive Steering="0.00000"
> > Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal
> > Telemetry Rate="2"
> > Telemetry In Race="1"
> > Telemetry EXE="telemetry\nt2003_telemetry.exe"
> > Telemetry File="telemetry\telemetry.spt"

> > > Bellsouth hasnt been letting me post lately, anyway...

> > > Thunder isnt so bad. It's bad, but not so bad. First of all, the
overall
> > > presentation, from the menu's to the way you pick opponents, etc. is
> just
> > > not very well thought out, and just not as useful as in Papy games.
It's
> > not
> > > such a big deal.

> > > The graphics are great. I dont care what anyone says, they are better
> than
> > > N2002 graphics, especially if you can turn on antialiasing on your
> > > videocard.

> > > The biggest problem in my opinion, is driving the car. It's almost as
if
> i
> > > have to guess how the tires are gonna react instead of having a feel
for
> > how
> > > they'd react based on how im driving....

> > > what i mean is in N2002, when i step on the gas the weight shifts
back,
> > and
> > > when i brake the weight shifts forward, and the car reacts
accordingly.
> on
> > > NT2003, understeer and oversteer seem to be based more on pure speed
> than
> > > the force on each tire. I never know if my car is gonna push or spin.

> > > The second thing that bothers me, and more than the physics itself, is
> the
> > > control of the steering wheel. It wont let you set to 0% speed
> > sensitivity,
> > > and its almost impossible to get your car going straight. I find
myself
> > > constantly adjusting left and right like grandma on the highway. Then
> > once
> > > I do get in a turn, If i hold the wheel steady it seems like all of a
> > sudden
> > > my cars turning radius will change, as if i did steer, and i have to
> > adjust
> > > again, which tends to make my car go allover the place. In my opinion,
i
> f
> > > the steering input functioned the same as in a Papy game, NT2003 would
> be
> > a
> > > helluva lot more fun to drive.

> > > The best time ive had so far is on Atlanta driving in a pack of AI
cars,
> > > because from what ive seen it seems to be the only track where the
> > banking,
> > > car, and steering all seem to agree, so the car is a bit more
> predictable.

> > > Now, all my driving has been done with the included setups, which dont
> > seem
> > > to be very good. Is there anywhere to download better setups ?

by **Philste** » Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:01:18

I have the same feeling with my TSW wheel. But it's totally BS... why would
I need to thinker with 56 different slidders in order to obtain a
confortable feel? I mean I only have ONE slider to adjust in other game
(i.e. steering linearity). That's also why I couldn't stand NASCAR Heat
despite some qualities... the wheel never acted a way a felt confortable
with, no matter the amount of tweaking.

--
Philippe "Philster" Sergerie

> OK..I tweaked a couple of things in the .plr file. Changed steering help
> functionality and speed sensitive steering.

> My TSW is immediately alive in the game. However now it is so twitchy I
spin
> very easily. The wheel see saws back and forth. However I am happy because
> it is a starting place. A place to break away from those bogus default
> settings.

> What can I do within the controller settings screen to take away this see
> saw effects (or any other tweaks you can think of)?

> I want to be able to enjoy this game. maybe this is a start. My wheel
> finally has life.

> DC

> [ DRIVING AIDS ]
> Steering Help="0"
> Steering Help Functionality="0" // 0 = new help, 1 = new help + grip, 2 =
> original, 3 = original + grip
> Throttle Control="0"
> Brake Help="0"
> Antilock Brakes="0"
> Spin Recovery="0"
> Invulnerability="0"
> Autopit="0"
> Auto Pace Lap="0"
> Opposite Lock="0"
> Stability Control="0"
> No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car (except autopit and
auto
> pace lap)
> Pitcrew Push="1" // When out of fuel in pitlane, allows pitcrew to push
car
> (use throttle and gear selection to direct)
> Auto Clutch="1"
> Auto Lift="0" // Whether to automatically lift with manual shifting but
> auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
> Auto Blip="1" // Whether to automatically blip with manual shifting but
> auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
> Shift Mode="0"
> Auto Reverse="0"
> Speed Sensitive Steering="0.00000"
> Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal
> Telemetry Rate="2"
> Telemetry In Race="1"
> Telemetry EXE="telemetry\nt2003_telemetry.exe"
> Telemetry File="telemetry\telemetry.spt"

> > Bellsouth hasnt been letting me post lately, anyway...

> > Thunder isnt so bad. It's bad, but not so bad. First of all, the overall
> > presentation, from the menu's to the way you pick opponents, etc. is
just
> > not very well thought out, and just not as useful as in Papy games. It's
> not
> > such a big deal.

> > The graphics are great. I dont care what anyone says, they are better
than
> > N2002 graphics, especially if you can turn on antialiasing on your
> > videocard.

> > The biggest problem in my opinion, is driving the car. It's almost as if
i
> > have to guess how the tires are gonna react instead of having a feel for
> how
> > they'd react based on how im driving....

> > what i mean is in N2002, when i step on the gas the weight shifts back,
> and
> > when i brake the weight shifts forward, and the car reacts accordingly.
on
> > NT2003, understeer and oversteer seem to be based more on pure speed
than
> > the force on each tire. I never know if my car is gonna push or spin.

> > The second thing that bothers me, and more than the physics itself, is
the
> > control of the steering wheel. It wont let you set to 0% speed
> sensitivity,
> > and its almost impossible to get your car going straight. I find myself
> > constantly adjusting left and right like grandma on the highway. Then
> once
> > I do get in a turn, If i hold the wheel steady it seems like all of a
> sudden
> > my cars turning radius will change, as if i did steer, and i have to
> adjust
> > again, which tends to make my car go allover the place. In my opinion,
if
> > the steering input functioned the same as in a Papy game, NT2003 would
be
> a
> > helluva lot more fun to drive.

> > The best time ive had so far is on Atlanta driving in a pack of AI cars,
> > because from what ive seen it seems to be the only track where the
> banking,
> > car, and steering all seem to agree, so the car is a bit more
predictable.

> > Now, all my driving has been done with the included setups, which dont
> seem
> > to be very good. Is there anywhere to download better setups ?

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 26 Oct 2002 12:14:28

I wonder how much F1 teams spend on getting controllers to feel right?
I'm pretty sure they invest a-lot of time and money getting those wheels and
pedals and knobs and switches etc perfect. I would suspect they have people
whose sole job it is just to design, and craft an ergonomic wheel. Also it
wouldn't suprise me if the drivers spent more than just a couple of minutes
adjusting and moving and tweeking the position and feel of their wheels,
(again probably in the company of several highly paid engineers)

so with all that supposition on my part, why aren't simmers ready to
dig, tweek, adjust, test, adjust, and test some more their wheels?
dave henrie

by **John Pancoas** » Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:07:31

> > I have the same feeling with my TSW wheel. But it's totally BS... why
> would
> > I need to thinker with 56 different slidders in order to obtain a
> > confortable feel? I mean I only have ONE slider to adjust in other game
> > (i.e. steering linearity). That's also why I couldn't stand NASCAR Heat
> > despite some qualities... the wheel never acted a way a felt confortable
> > with, no matter the amount of tweaking.

> I wonder how much F1 teams spend on getting controllers to feel right?
> I'm pretty sure they invest a-lot of time and money getting those wheels
and
> pedals and knobs and switches etc perfect. I would suspect they have
people
> whose sole job it is just to design, and craft an ergonomic wheel. Also
it
> wouldn't suprise me if the drivers spent more than just a couple of
minutes
> adjusting and moving and tweeking the position and feel of their wheels,
> (again probably in the company of several highly paid engineers)

> so with all that supposition on my part, why aren't simmers ready to
> dig, tweek, adjust, test, adjust, and test some more their wheels?
> dave henrie

Because:

-they're getting paid for it. Simmers pay for it.

-it's their job. It's our hobby.

:)

John

- Show quoted text -

by **Nic** » Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:41:10

Yeah, and sometimes they will cut the steering column and re-weld it
so the driver feels more comfortable, only for the wheel to shear off
the column in the middle of the race and put the most talented driver
(at the time) into the wall. To be fair, that hasn't happened since
Imola '94, and it seems Williams have learnt their lesson from the
endless trial.

> I wonder how much F1 teams spend on getting controllers to feel right?
> I'm pretty sure they invest a-lot of time and money getting those wheels and
> pedals and knobs and switches etc perfect. I would suspect they have people
> whose sole job it is just to design, and craft an ergonomic wheel. Also it
> wouldn't suprise me if the drivers spent more than just a couple of minutes
> adjusting and moving and tweeking the position and feel of their wheels,
> (again probably in the company of several highly paid engineers)

> so with all that supposition on my part, why aren't simmers ready to
> dig, tweek, adjust, test, adjust, and test some more their wheels?
> dave henrie

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 26 Oct 2002 22:33:34

Yes that was a poor choice, but there's another question: If Ayrton
Senna asks for a change, do you tell him no?
dave henrie

by **David Ciemn** » Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:38:38

I agree there Philster. I don't have the time to adjust 13,000 things. The
tweaks I did make allow my wheel to work a bit better.

I just like to load and play so to speak.

DC

> I have the same feeling with my TSW wheel. But it's totally BS... why
would
> I need to thinker with 56 different slidders in order to obtain a
> confortable feel? I mean I only have ONE slider to adjust in other game
> (i.e. steering linearity). That's also why I couldn't stand NASCAR Heat
> despite some qualities... the wheel never acted a way a felt confortable
> with, no matter the amount of tweaking.

> --
> Philippe "Philster" Sergerie

> > OK..I tweaked a couple of things in the .plr file. Changed steering help
> > functionality and speed sensitive steering.