rec.autos.simulators

by **Robert Mull** » Mon, 27 May 1996 04:00:00

Is there going to be the ability to look to the side virtual***pit style? I
think that if there were 5 view positions (straight ahead, 45 left or right and
90 left or right) it could increase the realism quite a bit.If you still had a
good forward perspective I think that the 45 left could realy help on the ovals
and give a bit more of a sense of peripheral vision. I just dont know if a
monitor could provide enough real-estate to pull this off. Maybe at 800x600 or
higher resolution. Will the sim support these higher resolutions?

by **Stuart Boo** » Thu, 30 May 1996 04:00:00

>Is there going to be the ability to look to the side virtual***pit style? I
>think that if there were 5 view positions (straight ahead, 45 left or right and
>90 left or right) it could increase the realism quite a bit.If you still had a
>good forward perspective I think that the 45 left could realy help on the ovals
> and give a bit more of a sense of peripheral vision. I just dont know if a
>monitor could provide enough real-estate to pull this off. Maybe at 800x600 or
>higher resolution. Will the sim support these higher resolutions?

I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm
undertaking through the corners...

It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel
perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs
for the gear shift buttons.

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

by **Mike Carrother** » Thu, 30 May 1996 04:00:00

(Stuart Booth) writes:

>>Is there going to be the ability to look to the side virtual***pit
style? I
>>think that if there were 5 view positions (straight ahead, 45 left or
right and
>>90 left or right) it could increase the realism quite a bit.If you
still had a
>>good forward perspective I think that the 45 left could realy help on
the ovals
>> and give a bit more of a sense of peripheral vision. I just dont
know if a
>>monitor could provide enough real-estate to pull this off. Maybe at
800x600 or
>>higher resolution. Will the sim support these higher resolutions?

>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm
>undertaking through the corners...

>It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel
>perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs
>for the gear shift buttons.

>Stuart

>--
>Stuart Booth
>Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

Maybe Papyrus will include two extra hands to use these features. That
way we could look side to side, drive, wave, and drink a beer (or
Pepsi) all at the same time.

Mike

by **Gary Hama** » Thu, 30 May 1996 04:00:00

I might as well jump into the thick of it also! One thing I've thought would make a nice addition would be overlap
indicators. They could be as simple as 2 lights that would illuminate whenever a car is along side of you (Their front
bumper is even with your rear bumper). One for the left and one for the right. I find the mirrors don't always give
enough perspective to determine whether you need to leave room for another car on the inside or outside.

by Jo » Fri, 31 May 1996 04:00:00

>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm
>undertaking through the corners...
>It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel
>perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs
>for the gear shift buttons.

What they need is VR headset support, with headset-tracking used to
look around. If Nascar had *that*, I might just invest in one of those
headsets.

Joe

by **Mike** » Fri, 31 May 1996 04:00:00

>>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm
>>undertaking through the corners...
>>It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel
>>perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs
>>for the gear shift buttons.
>What they need is VR headset support, with headset-tracking used to
>look around. If Nascar had *that*, I might just invest in one of those
>headsets.
>Joe

As I understand it, the resolution of the currently available headsets
is too low to really make the game enjoyable. Maybe it's just my eyes,
but when I used one I had trouble maintaining focused vision. As a
result, the game was not enjoyable. (Spending too many hours reading
all these posts :) )

However, I have heard that VFX is currently developing a new version
of it's headset that supports a higher resolution. (640 x 480 I
think.) Perhaps then they will have mass appeal and the prices will
drop.

Mike

by Jo » Fri, 31 May 1996 04:00:00

>As I understand it, the resolution of the currently available headsets
>is too low to really make the game enjoyable. Maybe it's just my eyes,
>but when I used one I had trouble maintaining focused vision. As a
>result, the game was not enjoyable. (Spending too many hours reading
>all these posts :) )
>However, I have heard that VFX is currently developing a new version
>of it's headset that supports a higher resolution. (640 x 480 I
>think.) Perhaps then they will have mass appeal and the prices will
>drop.

I haven't tried the headsets, my I've heard a lot of comments similar
to yours. But remember that Nascar 2 isn't due suntil late Fall, which
means that the 640x480 headsets might be available. Have you heard of
any timelines for the 2nd-generation headsets?

Joe

by **Stuart Boo** » Fri, 31 May 1996 04:00:00

>(Stuart Booth) writes:
>>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm
>>undertaking through the corners...
>Maybe Papyrus will include two extra hands to use these features. That
>way we could look side to side, drive, wave, and drink a beer (or
>Pepsi) all at the same time.

ROFL!

How about a second set of eyeballs so that I can look to see where my
H2H opponent is on the track without smacking the wall? Hmmmm, any
bets on my having done THAT before? No? Didn't think so!

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

by **Stuart Boo** » Fri, 31 May 1996 04:00:00

>I might as well jump into the thick of it also! One thing I've thought would make a nice addition would be overlap
>indicators. They could be as simple as 2 lights that would illuminate whenever a car is along side of you (Their front
>bumper is even with your rear bumper). One for the left and one for the right. I find the mirrors don't always give
>enough perspective to determine whether you need to leave room for another car on the inside or outside.

Not sure about this one to be honest. I think the mirrors in ICR2,
however unrealistic, really do help once you've learned to "read"
them. Lights for me wouldn't do the trick well enough. They compensate
well for what is a tricky problem. Until we get hi-res helmets that
is.

There would be too much margin for error with lights, since they're
digital: on or off. Where do you place their 'on' position vs their
'off' position?

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

by **Stuart Boo** » Fri, 31 May 1996 04:00:00

>>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm
>>undertaking through the corners...

>>It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel
>>perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs
>>for the gear shift buttons.

>What they need is VR headset support, with headset-tracking used to
>look around. If Nascar had *that*, I might just invest in one of those
>headsets.

Absolutely. I don't mind admitting that the Papyrus products PARTLY
drive my hardware purchasing/upgrading (honest!). Well, if it wasn't
for their quality sims I wouldn't have had the urge to spend a stack
of cash on a steering wheel that's for sure. Anyway, if a VR helmet
were supported in a quality sim, I'd probably buy one too. But at
SVGA? How expensive are those babies? I also quite like 3D games such
as System Shock and Duke3D, for which they'd also be wonderful. But
it's what Papyrus/Microprose support that would matter for my
shortlist.

Feedback from the car and a VR helmet. MMmmmm.

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

by Jo » Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>Absolutely. I don't mind admitting that the Papyrus products PARTLY
>drive my hardware purchasing/upgrading (honest!). Well, if it wasn't
>for their quality sims I wouldn't have had the urge to spend a stack
>of cash on a steering wheel that's for sure. Anyway, if a VR helmet
>were supported in a quality sim, I'd probably buy one too. But at
>SVGA? How expensive are those babies?

They start at around $800, there's a few in the under-$1000 range. But
these are first generation units, VGA only (320x200 for each eye). The
second generation ones will be SVGA with a similar or lower price. I'm
not sure if these will be out by the time Nascar 2 is or not.

I'd also consider getting an SVGA one for Flight Unlimited, the
aerobatic flying simulator. It supports real head tracking, i.e.,
turning your head changes where you are looking, but you still steer
with the joystick. They (Looking Glass Technologies) are working on a
combat version - imagine how much VR would improve that, being able to
look sideways and see where enemy planes are.

Joe

by **Mike** » Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>I haven't tried the headsets, my I've heard a lot of comments similar
>to yours. But remember that Nascar 2 isn't due suntil late Fall, which
>means that the 640x480 headsets might be available. Have you heard of
>any timelines for the 2nd-generation headsets?
>Joe

Unfortunately, I haven't heard of a date. Perhaps VFX has a home page
with more info. However, I do feel that unless Papyrus has already
made the decision to support such headsets in NCR2 they will not be
supported. My personal opinion is that although they would be nice, I
feel they will not be supported in NCR2.

Mike

by **Stuart Boo** » Sun, 02 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>imagine how much VR would improve that, being able to
>look sideways and see where enemy planes are.

WITHOUT having to press a button and use your joystick. 2 separate
actions that would come very naturally. Oh yes.

I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for
some time to come though. I was wondering how much something like that
would affect the frame rate. Rather than having a fixed view from the
***pit you've got scenery and viewpoint moving. But then it occured
to me that this wouldn't be too much different from the cameras. So
perhaps it would be easier than we think.

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

by Jo » Sun, 02 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>WITHOUT having to press a button and use your joystick. 2 separate
>actions that would come very naturally. Oh yes.
>I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for
>some time to come though.

Looking Glass Technologies supports it in Flight Unlimited, and
they're just a little startup, FU is their first program. They're much
smaller than Papyrus. I'm sure if VR moves closer to the mainstream
(which at this point is more a matter of quality than cost - the SVGA
units should be pretty good) that we'll see widespread support before
long.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to affect the frame-rate *too* much in the
replays - you'd probably just have to turn a few details off. Or,
since we're probably talking about the Fall/Christmass season, get a
good 3D accelerator card (along with the new Thrustmaster
force-feedback steering wheel - better start saving money! <g>).

It seems like a long way off until you think that a year from now, we
may very well be playing in a multi-player, VR-enabled,
feedback-steering environment. All these technologies are coming
together now and should be widely available by then.

Joe

by **David Spark** » Sun, 02 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for
>some time to come though. I was wondering how much something like that
>would affect the frame rate. Rather than having a fixed view from the
>cockpit you've got scenery and viewpoint moving. But then it occured
>to me that this wouldn't be too much different from the cameras. So
>perhaps it would be easier than we think.

It would be just like using arcade mode, where the entire screen buffer is
changing every frame, so you would have to expect a lower frame rate. Using
the in-cockpit view, the***pit itself remains static except for the
guages, which reduces the amount of time it takes to render a frame.

However, if stereo vision is supported, you have to render two separate
frames from two different vantage points, which doubles the overhead.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

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