rec.autos.simulators

A new demo of my simulator

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:12:47


To backup this, someone suggested me to link drag to downforce
coefficient by a factor, instead of specifying the coefficient for
drag and downforce totally independent.
And that was based on actual F1 aero results. So that would back up
Jonny's statement that with extra downforce comes extra drag. That's
also why BHP is so important in F1; it's there to push the car through
all that extra generated drag.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Pencil art  : http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:19:44


...

I think so too; revved talks from his racing perspective, and adds up
a couple of things while the sim modelers split that into the
Newtonian parts. At that moment units become important.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:22:29




>>   I'm afraid he's exactly right, rrevved.  I think you may not be aware that
>> Jonny is speaking of two different things seperately here, where it sounds like
>> you might be combining them in one concept, although mathematically, they are
>> seperate things.  The steady state torque the engine produces has nothing to do
>> with the mass of the engine.

>so a (lot) heavier flywheel will _not_ increase engine braking?

I think this depends on the wheel brakes. Without wheels, a heavier
flywheel will cause less engine braking, since the flywheel wants to
continue spinning (has more inertia).
With good enough brakes though, the wheel brakes can brake both the
flywheel and the wheels (with their reactive forces of the road), and
so it would not make a whole lot of difference.
I think F1 brakes would be able to lock even at top speed, so the
flywheel becomes irrelevant there (you just need bigger brakes), but
ofcourse the flywheel has other effects (stabilizes things a bit and
enables idle throttling).

Hehe, I can read RCVD for a 100 times and still learn something new
each time I read it, simply because my understanding of it all grows.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:31:04


...

Right; that gets back to the original thing; with a lighter flywheel,
it still depends on the amount of engine braking *torque* what happens
with the net *acceleration* of the car.
Even if an F1 car has a lighter flywheel (which we know it does), we
can still have more or less acceleration of a car when closing the
throttle, depending on how much negative (braking) torque the engine
at that point generates.
The problem is thus; suppose we have an F1 engine and a Toyota engine,
both with exactly the same flywheel and nothing attached to it.
They're both running at say 10,000 rpm (the Toyota engine just not
blasting ;-) ), which engine would slow down quicker? (i.e. gives the
most negative torque).

The original proposition I gave was that the Toyota engine then slows
down faster (given the same flywheel). Ofcourse, that statement can be
shot, but hopefully with experimental results.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:33:52



...

Lol; but when you're simulating an engine in a computer, you must
separate these things to get a good simulation. That's the nice thing
about it; you put in the low level effects, and the driver running the
program says 'hey, it's got great oversteer' while you never actually
put anything like that directly into the program. :)

And for understanding WHY your car oversteers, I'd say it is pretty
good for a race driver to know exactly how a car works so that
solutions can be found quicker and more to the point. Just 'this car
oversteers too much' isn't that helpful.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:37:13







>> >> There are 2 parameters that decide the speed of revving up and down
>> >> (in neutral); the engine torque (which includes engine braking and
>> >> positive torque when the throttle pedal is pressed), and the engine
>> >> inertia.

>> >hm.  I always thought engine output and engine braking were completely
>> >separate.  engine braking is, like you say, just mass, while power
>> >output decreases with increasing mass.

>> Uhm, engine braking is not mass, but torque, as I see it. The net
>> torque an engine can produce is the sum of the part that make it want
>> to accelerate (fuel burning), and the part that wants to brake it
>> (pistons/air being compressed).

>of course engine braking is torque, but I always thought that almost
>_all_ of this was from inertia. take two-strokes as an example, they
>have insane compression ratios and virtually zero engine braking.

Inertia is just the resistance to get up (or down) to speed. Having
much inertia means you're going to spend a lot of energy getting to a
speed, but also means it won't fall down again that fast.

Yep, I thought about that one; didn't know such things were used in
cars themselves. Could be pretty relevant.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:46:33



>>Having MORE engine braking than a
>>street car (at the same rpm) would give the racecar a disadvantage

>Better engine response and braking is a disadvantage in F1 racing?

Better engine response is an advantage; more (better is subjective and
can mean more or less) engine braking certainly is a disadvantage.
That's because we have a fundamental difference on the presence of
engine braking; to me, it's always there, always trying to brake the
engine (which in engineering terms it is; the fuel must overcome the
engine's intrinsic braking to get positive torque and accelerate,
instead of decelerate).

So, more engine braking means that at a given rpm, the engine is also
braking harder (more friction etc); so you need MORE power to get it
to accelerate (overcome the desire of the engine to decelerate). With
less engine braking, you could get more power on the track, instead of
spending it to fight the engine's will to decelerate.

Again, it boils down to you using 'engine braking' as an acceleration
term (acceleration is also deceleration in mathematical terms), so
you're using the net effect, while I define it as the desire (torque)
of the engine wanting to slow down.
In your terms, more engine braking would indeed be better; in my
terms, more engine braking would be worse (as it subtracts from the
engine's power output, or rather torque output to put it cleanly).

The missing factor, the coefficient (0.74 for the Arrows F1 car), is
something that you don't calculate with (but mix in with your 'engine
braking' experience). The problem is; does an F1 engine, given the
same flywheel, slow down faster (picture the engine*** there
without a car around it) than a street car's engine?

You can go one way and say the F1 engine has bigger compression ratios
probably, so it slows down faster. On the other hand, the street car
engine might have more friction and slow down faster because of it.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Pencil art  : http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:48:40




>> >hm.  I always thought engine output and engine braking were completely
>> >separate.  engine braking is, like you say, just mass, while power
>> >output decreases with increasing mass.

>>   "Engine braking" in the context Ruud, Jonny, and myself are speaking of is a
>> torque, nothing else.  

>> The "rate at which the engine slows down" from this engine braking
>> torque

>oh aha.  I get it.  in my head "engine braking" has always been "the
>rate at which the vehicle slows down" minus brakes and aero drag.  oh well.

Right; but to simulate such things you need to break things apart. I
got pointed to this when adding an analog clutch; you then need to
simulate what happens if the engine is fully detached from the rest of
the car. For that situation, the car doesn't even need to be present,
so you can't simulate just by looking at what the whole car would do.
That just comes out of the equations in the end, implicitly.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:50:16


Right, no car is worth losing a wife you love for. Well, that's my
immaterialistic view of things. :)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Byron Forbe

A new demo of my simulator

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:22:39

    Oops. Right you are! Pretty much. :)

   Point was (small as it is) that "power" is not proportional to
speed^2 or ^3. It's somewhere in between. Closer to ^2 at low speeds and
^3 at higher speeds, of course :)



> >    Well, you are/were actually right and wrong both times :)

> >   Drag is proportional to speed under slipstreamed conditions.

> >   Drag is proportional to the square of speed in turbulent conditions.

> Mmm-hmm <nod>, but that's force.

> (Drag) force (proportional to) speed^2

> Power = force x speed

> Power (proportional to) speed^3

> Jonny

Byron Forbe

A new demo of my simulator

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:35:54

   Not quite sure what your point is. Last time I looked, streamlined
flow was defined as flow without "eddys". Once these "eddys" come into
effect, this is turbulent flow. Without eddys you have a steady gradient
of relative speed of airflow from the "skin" outwards. As speed
increases we have lower and lower pressure areas demonstrating
turbulence known as eddys (swirling little whirlwinds) . As soon as the
first one of these appears around a wing we have "Turbulent Airflow"!


> >    Well, you are/were actually right and wrong both times :)

> >   Drag is proportional to speed under slipstreamed conditions.

> >   Drag is proportional to the square of speed in turbulent conditions.

> >   The speed at which slipstream airflow degenerates into turbulent
> > airflow will vary for all the different bits of said car!

> Hmmm, but since as long as there is any skin friction
> there will be turbulence on (parts of) any profile, and
> since the pressure drag totally dominates the skin friction
> drag the resulting total drag will be proportional to the
> square of the speed?

>       _
> Mats Lofkvist


Ruud van Ga

A new demo of my simulator

by Ruud van Ga » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:14:17

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:35:54 +1100, Byron Forbes


>   Not quite sure what your point is. Last time I looked, streamlined
>flow was defined as flow without "eddys".

I think Mats means that in most real situations, you'll have
turbulence at least somewhere, so as this is much more important for
the aero effects, you can just estimate the entire thing using just
the squared speed rule. IOW real slipstream situations hardly ever
occur on cars? Just a hunch. Mats can probably clarify, I shouldn't
try and read his mind. :)


...
>> Hmmm, but since as long as there is any skin friction
>> there will be turbulence on (parts of) any profile, and
>> since the pressure drag totally dominates the skin friction
>> drag the resulting total drag will be proportional to the
>> square of the speed?

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
J. Todd Wass

A new demo of my simulator

by J. Todd Wass » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:40:51

 I want to know this too..  I would think the F-1 engine would slow down faster
(given identical flywheels/rotating inertia), but that's purely my imagination
talking..  Does anybody really know this?  I do have a number for a 5 liter
Ford somewhere..  I should post that here if I can find it.  Quite an
interesting explanation of what causes engine braking (from another group a
little while back.)

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Mats Lofkvis

A new demo of my simulator

by Mats Lofkvis » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:43:35


> On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:35:54 +1100, Byron Forbes

> >   Not quite sure what your point is. Last time I looked, streamlined
> >flow was defined as flow without "eddys".

> I think Mats means that in most real situations, you'll have
> turbulence at least somewhere, so as this is much more important for
> the aero effects, you can just estimate the entire thing using just
> the squared speed rule. IOW real slipstream situations hardly ever
> occur on cars? Just a hunch. Mats can probably clarify, I shouldn't
> try and read his mind. :)

You succeeded quite well at reading my mind, Ruud :-)

From what I have understood (?) of aerodynamics, the only
way to get drag proportional to less than the square of
the speed is to ignore friction / viscous flow.

(Actually, this assumtion leads to _zero_ drag, but
I guessed the friction was the source of the 'linear
in speed' part.)

      _
Mats Lofkvist


> ...
> >> Hmmm, but since as long as there is any skin friction
> >> there will be turbulence on (parts of) any profile, and
> >> since the pressure drag totally dominates the skin friction
> >> drag the resulting total drag will be proportional to the
> >> square of the speed?


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