rec.autos.simulators

new patch and mod thoughts

David G Fishe

new patch and mod thoughts

by David G Fishe » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:49:19


> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:20:54 +0000 (UTC), "Ashley McConnell"

> >What mods are possible?  Is it just trucks?

> Papyrus added 3 new physics models:

> Busch Grand National Series
> Craftsman Truck Series
> Papyrus Trans Am Series (basically generic road racing physics)

> The last one is to die for, in terms of driving, and the graphical
> addon being prepared by Project Wildfire is going to be gorgeous
> (Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Jaguars).  Driving the GPL tracks in PTA
> cars has actually caused me to go back and enjoy GPL more.  The bit of
> the TPTCC race at the Glen that I was able to make was awesome, we ran
> about 10-15 laps nose to tail back through the field, which is pretty
> incredible considering the range of driver skills.  It's good fun and
> taking Masta flat at 210mph with a low rear wing is exhilerating. =)

> Jason

Any idea where I can get a TA setup for Spa? I just installed the TA mod 10
minutes ago.

David G Fisher

jason moy

new patch and mod thoughts

by jason moy » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:31:19

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:49:19 -0400, "David G Fisher"


>Any idea where I can get a TA setup for Spa? I just installed the TA mod 10
>minutes ago.

Dave, I just use the Watkins Glen "fast" setup that comes with the
project wildfire install and change the wing/brake bias/gears.  At spa
I believe I just knocked the brake bias down to 54%, the rear wing as
far down as it would go, and increased the diff significantly.

Jason

John DiFoo

new patch and mod thoughts

by John DiFoo » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:19:25



>On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:49:19 -0400, "David G Fisher"

>>Any idea where I can get a TA setup for Spa? I just installed the TA mod 10
>>minutes ago.

>Dave, I just use the Watkins Glen "fast" setup that comes with the
>project wildfire install and change the wing/brake bias/gears.  At spa
>I believe I just knocked the brake bias down to 54%, the rear wing as
>far down as it would go, and increased the diff significantly.

>Jason

Hmm trading stability in the turns for a higher top end and
acceleration...   Is the 210 at the Kink by yourself, or in a
draft?

        John DiFool

jason moy

new patch and mod thoughts

by jason moy » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:31:49

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:19:25 GMT, John DiFool


>Hmm trading stability in the turns for a higher top end and
>acceleration...   Is the 210 at the Kink by yourself, or in a
>draft?

By myself, altho IIRC it's more like 210 entrance and 205 exit.

I'm a few seconds faster with the wing knocked down than with it up,
but admittedly Buernville is a lot more interesting and I've
countersteered it into the edges there a few times. =)

Jason

Bruce Kennewel

new patch and mod thoughts

by Bruce Kennewel » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:27:24

We were talking about "NASCAR" - not "the art of oval racing".
And for Christ's sake - don't compare Brooklands of the 1920's - 1930's with
NASCAR!

Bruce.


Doug Elliso

new patch and mod thoughts

by Doug Elliso » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:09:16

I know - I'm sorry.  Amazing how much progress has been made in 70 years.

Did I say progress.  Oops. My bad.

Doug

John DiFoo

new patch and mod thoughts

by John DiFoo » Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:51:39



>On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:19:25 GMT, John DiFool

>>Hmm trading stability in the turns for a higher top end and
>>acceleration...   Is the 210 at the Kink by yourself, or in a
>>draft?

>By myself, altho IIRC it's more like 210 entrance and 205 exit.

>I'm a few seconds faster with the wing knocked down than with it up,
>but admittedly Buernville is a lot more interesting and I've
>countersteered it into the edges there a few times. =)

>Jason

Well, if you can get around Spa with a low spoiler, more
power to ya.  ;-)  I tried it last night, and was hopelessly
loose, esp. in places like Malmedy where it will kill you.
[durned aliens...]

       JD

Doug Elliso

new patch and mod thoughts

by Doug Elliso » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:13:27



> > By all means feel free to go and find a quote in which I slag of Papy's
> work
> > in producing N2k3 -

> well I could if I wanted to

Prove it.  I know you're lying - so I challenge you to prove it
David G Fishe

new patch and mod thoughts

by David G Fishe » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:35:05

That's fun. :-)

I did exactly as you said, and with a differential of 2.950, I was just
about hitting 210 going into the Masta kink. Floored it all the way through.
Most of those turns are fun with that car.

Thanks for the setup advice.

David G Fisher


> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:49:19 -0400, "David G Fisher"

> >Any idea where I can get a TA setup for Spa? I just installed the TA mod
10
> >minutes ago.

> Dave, I just use the Watkins Glen "fast" setup that comes with the
> project wildfire install and change the wing/brake bias/gears.  At spa
> I believe I just knocked the brake bias down to 54%, the rear wing as
> far down as it would go, and increased the diff significantly.

> Jason

David G Fishe

new patch and mod thoughts

by David G Fishe » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:04:55


> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:19:25 GMT, John DiFool

> >Hmm trading stability in the turns for a higher top end and
> >acceleration...   Is the 210 at the Kink by yourself, or in a
> >draft?

> By myself, altho IIRC it's more like 210 entrance and 205 exit.

> I'm a few seconds faster with the wing knocked down than with it up,
> but admittedly Buernville is a lot more interesting and I've
> countersteered it into the edges there a few times. =)

> Jason

My best is a 3:04.8. with the wing at 60. Doesn't seem to make any
difference to me whether I have it at 45 or 60 though. Times are about the
same now. I'm pretty much a rookie at this track compared to many here
though (my GPL history isn't a secret :-o), so I'm probably not very good
for judging a setup. Is that time any good?

David G Fisher

jason moy

new patch and mod thoughts

by jason moy » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:54:58

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:04:55 -0400, "David G Fisher"


>My best is a 3:04.8. with the wing at 60.

60 is probably a decent compromise, I'd imagine.  I'm at the same time
as you are and versus the fast guys I'm losing 3 seconds in Stavelot
(using 45 wing).  No problems anywhere else, just need to be smooth
through Buernville and Stavelot.  Being loose actually feels pretty
good through Eau Rouge,  I can stay on the gas until past the dip,
brake/downshift to third, and then hammer the gas and the rearend
kicks out just enough to point me at the hill on the left.  I
desperately need to find time in Stavelot tho...

Jason

David G Fishe

new patch and mod thoughts

by David G Fishe » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:26:13

http://home.comcast.net/~davegf/

Here's a copy of my lap. If you get the chance, maybe you can give me some
pointers as to where I'm losing time. I don't know where to look to see hot
laps for the TA mod.

David G Fisher


> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:04:55 -0400, "David G Fisher"

> >My best is a 3:04.8. with the wing at 60.

> 60 is probably a decent compromise, I'd imagine.  I'm at the same time
> as you are and versus the fast guys I'm losing 3 seconds in Stavelot
> (using 45 wing).  No problems anywhere else, just need to be smooth
> through Buernville and Stavelot.  Being loose actually feels pretty
> good through Eau Rouge,  I can stay on the gas until past the dip,
> brake/downshift to third, and then hammer the gas and the rearend
> kicks out just enough to point me at the hill on the left.  I
> desperately need to find time in Stavelot tho...

> Jason

John DiFoo

new patch and mod thoughts

by John DiFoo » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:58:51

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:26:13 -0400, "David G Fisher"


>http://www.racesimcentral.net/~davegf/

>Here's a copy of my lap. If you get the chance, maybe you can give me some
>pointers as to where I'm losing time. I don't know where to look to see hot
>laps for the TA mod.

>David G Fisher

Well, I'm no alien by any stretch of the imagination, but key turn
by key turn:

1.  Eau Rouge: gotta hug the left fence as close as you can
after the start finish, where the fence starts to hook left.  Then
tap the brake just slightly to set the car going in the right
direction (right), smoothly but quickly reapply throttle, turn the
wheel firmly but smoothly to the right, trying to hug the right side
of the track as much as possible, then left over the left sandy curb
as you exit (but if you hit the hill you're dead).  I can manage an
apex speed in the low 150's, close to 160 on exit.

2.  Les Combes:  This isn't that bad because it's harder to lock
your brakes up when braking uphill.  :-)  I hit them right before
the black mark on the pavement, actually trying to position the
car a bit to the right of said mark.   Apex speed of 95 is okay
because if I go higher I lose too much speed on exit.

3.  Burnenville:  You should be able to powerslide at full
throttle through here if you set the car right with a slight
flick of the wheel to the right.

3.  Malmedy:  Pain in the ***this turn is!  Yoda says you have
to hit your mark to turn right for the Masta straight just right,
or you're either in the fence or you just lost a ton of time on
that long straight.  I brake hard for the lefthander, wait a
beat, tap the brakes for the righty, and if I do it right I can
get through at 135.  Usually tho I am leaving paint all over
the left rail...

4.  Masta:  Just hug the left rail as you enter-smooth is
the word on the exit.  If you're too late on entry say hello
to the fence (tho once I did a barrel roll-with no damage
turned on-and did a 4 wheel landing on the following
straight!).

5.  Stavelot:  I've decided to brake early to set the car for
the second sharper corner: if I don't I end up too wide,
scrubbing off too much speed and time.  Can take the
first part flat out in a TA car tho.  157 as lowest speed if
I do it right (maybe 25% of the time...).

6.  La Carriere:  I once went through at 170 here-have
no idea how tho and haven't been able to since!  The
margin for error on your turn-in is so small here (tho
usually you just mow the lawn on the left if you futz it
up).

7.  Blanchimont:     Just a little bit slower than the last
one, and you are doing a little powerslide through here
too.  160 is a good apex speed.

8.  La Source:  Again uphill braker so you can be a little
late (but not too much so!).  Been much better of late
here regarding lockups: the damn exit has an error in
it now after Dave moved the pit entrance, and there's
a bump there (hell probably should be bumps like that
all over the place so I guess I shouldn't complain...).

HTH!  Someone  else can probably give you better tips
than I ever could, but it's a start...

        John DiFool

Peter Fo

new patch and mod thoughts

by Peter Fo » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:17:38

> Actually - the art of oval racing was conceived in the UK

FOR HISTOrY BUFFS, Turning left 2000 years ago:

Circus Maximus
(revised)

It was at the first celebration of the Consualia in honor of Consus,
an ancient god of agriculture, that the rape of the Sabine women was
thought to have occurred. Romulus is said to have held chariot races
then which were so distracting, says Livy, that "nobody had eyes or
thoughts for anything else." While the men watched the races, their
unmarried women were abducted by the Romans to be their wives.

The races took place on either side of a brook that ran between the
Aventine and Palatine hills, and it was in the middle of this valley
that the Circus Maximus traditionally was thought to have been founded
in the sixth century BC by Tarquinius Priscus, the fifth king of Rome.
By channeling and bridging the stream, an euripus was created that
served as a barrier (spina) for the track. Livy records that in 329 BC
permanent starting gates were constructed and, in 174 BC, that they
were rebuilt and seven large wooden eggs set up between columns on the
spina to indicate the completion of each lap. There was reconstruction
by Julius Caesar, and, in 33 BC, Agrippa supplemented the eggs with
seven bronze dolphins, and had another set of eggs placed near the
starting gates to mark laps for the charioteers. After a fire in 31
BC, Augustus constructed the pulvinar, a shrine built into the seating
below the Palatine Hill, which was used as an imperial box to watch
the games and where images of the gods were installed after having
been brought in procession (pompa) from the Capitol. In 10 BC,
Augustus also erected an obelisk on the spina as a dedication to the
Sun and monument of his conquest of Egypt.

This is the Circus that so impressed Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who
described it in 7 BC as "one of the most beautiful and admirable
structures in Rome." It measured approximately 2,035 feet in length
and 460 feet in width and could seat 150,000. Outside, says Dionysius,
"there are entrances and ascents for the spectators at every shop, so
that the countless thousands of people may enter and depart without
inconvenience." Inhabited by cooks, astrologers, and prostitutes, it
was in this arcade of wooden shops (tabernae) that the disastrous fire
of AD 64 broke out during the reign of Nero. Of the Circus then, Pliny
the Elder considered it to be one of the great buildings in the world,
able to seat 250,000 persons. (Seating capacity probably was closer to
170,000.)

By AD 103, after another fire (possibly the one of AD 80), Trajan had
restored the Circus to its greatest splendor, rivaling the beauty of
temples says Pliny the Younger. Three stories high, with arches and
engaged columns in the first story, the seating areas were divided
into zones by walkways. The seats in the first tier were of marble
and, aside from those in the front row, along a portion of the podium
wall reserved for senators, and other seats for the equites who sat
behind them, were not segregated as they were in the Colosseum and the
theater. Men and women could sit together, an opportunity for
flirtation and dalliance of which Ovid was not unaware.

Although the Circus Maximus was designed for chariot racing (ludi
circenses), other events were held there, including gladiatorial
combats (ludi gladiatorii) and wild animal hunts (venationes),
athletic events, and processions. Caesar showed wild beasts in the
Circus and had a water-filled channel ten feet wide and ten feet deep
dug around the arena to serve as a protective moat. When, in AD 63, it
was filled in by Nero to provide space for additional seating, it no
longer was safe to have animal fights in the Circus and, eventually,
they were transferred to the Colosseum.

By the time of Augustus, seventy-seven days were given over to public
games during the year, and races were run on seventeen of them. There
usually were ten or twelve races a day, until Caligula doubled that
number and, from the time of Nero, twenty-four races became typical.
Still, Domitian once had one hundred races a day but reduced the
number of laps to five to fit them all in, and Commodus ran thirty
races run in just two hours one afternoon in AD 192. These numbers are
exceptional, of course, and not likely to have been repeated, if only
because the horses had to be transported from the Campus Martius,
where they were stabled, over a mile away.

The chariots started from twelve gates (carceres), six on either side
of an entrance that led from the Forum Boarium. Above sat the
presiding magistrate at whose signal the races began. Far at the other
end, along the sweeping curve of the track, was another gate by which
processions entered the Circus. In AD 80, it was rebuilt as a
triumphal arch to commemorate the conquest of Judea by Titus. On the
spina, itself, were various monuments and shrines, including one to
Consus and another to Murcia, who may have been the divinity of the
brook over which the Circus was built. At either end were the metae or
turning posts, both comprised of three gilded bronze cones grouped on
a high semicircular base. There were thirteen turns, run
counter-clockwise, around the metae for a total of seven laps
(spatia), a distance of approximately three or four miles
(approximately twice that of a modern track), depending upon how close
to the inside the driver could stay.

To ensure a fair start, the starting gates were built along a slight
curve so that the distance to the break line, before which the
chariots were not allowed to leave their lanes, was the same for each.
Drivers were required to stay within a marked lane until that point
was reached, after which they could jockey for position. Lots were
drawn to determine which gate was selected. The presiding magistrate
(either a consul or praetor) dropped a white starting flag (mappa),
the gates to the stalls flew open, and the race began.

The quadrigae was pulled by four horses, two outside horses, which
were not yoked but harnessed only by a trace, and a yoked pair in the
center, the right horse of which was considered to be the more
important. The inside trace horse also had to be the strong to set the
pace and take the turns around the metae. The number of sharp turns
and the hard surface of the track meant that the animals often
suffered concussions and strains or even broken bones. There were
other dangers, as well, which Pelagonius, a fourth-century
practitioner, enumerates in his Ars Veterinaria. They included blows
to the eyes from an opponent's whip or a cut tongue from a bit pulled
too hard. The horse's tail also could tangle in the reins, and usually
was bound.

Race horses were carefully bred and their conformation and pedigree a
matter of importance. They did not begin racing until they were five
years old (although Columella says that three-year olds could begin
training) and often had long careers afterwards. The best horses came
from stud farms in North Africa and Iberia (Spain), and were
transported to Rome on special ships (hippago) designed for the
purpose. Most often, those that competed in the Circus were stallions,
which also were in demand for breeding. A popular horse often was
recognized by sight, a fact about which Martial complains in not being
so readily known, himself.

If the horses were well bred, the charioteers (aurigae) who drove them
were not. Most were slaves or freedmen and, like the gladiator, were
infamis and of low social status. Competitors often would turn in
front of one another, hoping to force a collision and cause their
opponent to wreck (naufragium). To gain leverage, the charioteer
wrapped the reins around his waist, and, in the event of a crash,
could extricate himself only by cutting them away with a knife. Since
fouls often were deliberate, the risk of being dragged was very real.
There were times, too, when, as Martial hints, it might be prudent to
hold back and not disappoint the expectations of the emperor. Too
egregious a situation, however, and there would be an outcry from the
spectators, who, as Ovid indicates, would wave their togas and insist
that the race be stopped and run again. Cassius Dio records that the
number of races that had to be started again eventually became so
excessive that Claudius severely limited their number.

Still, the best charioteers were lionized by the public, consulted and
cursed as magicians (how else to explain their repeated victories),
and fabulously wealthy, at least those who were freedmen, who always
could threaten to drive for another faction. Prize money ranged from
fifteen to thirty thousand sesterces to as much as sixty thousand for
a single victory. Juvenal complains that a chariot driver could earn a
hundred times the fee of a lawyer, and Martial writes of Scorpus
winning fifteen bags of gold in an hour. Diocles, a charioteer from
Lusitania (Spain) who competed during the reign of Hadrian and
Antoninus Pius, won prize money totaling 35,863,120 sesterces before
retiring at age forty-two. An inscription dedicated in his name
records 1,462 wins in 4,257 races over twenty-four years, beginning
with his first race in AD 122 at age eighteen (although he raced for
two years before his first victory). One thousand sixty-four of these
were in singles, in which he raced for himself rather than as a team.
He rode nine horses to one hundred victories apiece and one to two
hundred. Although there were others who won more victories, Diocles at
least lived to enjoy his success. Scorpus, who had 2,048 victories,
died in the arena at age twenty-six, his death eulogized by Martial
and his gilded busts over all the city.

The Circus was the most popular of the diversions provided by the
emperor, the diverting panem et circuses which Juvenal satirizes, and
its fans fanatical in their devotion to the races. Originally,
professional stables were contracted to provide the necessary horses,
personnel, and equipment; in time, these factions ...

read more »

Joachim Trens

new patch and mod thoughts

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:15:52

I've uploaded a 3:00.849 with a wing setting of 60, at 70o Clear no Wind to
the TransAm Replays section of http://users.skynet.be/AchimT/start.html. I
have a feeling that everything below 60 will become a lot harder to drive,
while with a wing setting of 60 the car is still almost as stable as with a
wing setting of 70.

Achim


> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:04:55 -0400, "David G Fisher"

> >My best is a 3:04.8. with the wing at 60.

> 60 is probably a decent compromise, I'd imagine.  I'm at the same time
> as you are and versus the fast guys I'm losing 3 seconds in Stavelot
> (using 45 wing).  No problems anywhere else, just need to be smooth
> through Buernville and Stavelot.  Being loose actually feels pretty
> good through Eau Rouge,  I can stay on the gas until past the dip,
> brake/downshift to third, and then hammer the gas and the rearend
> kicks out just enough to point me at the hill on the left.  I
> desperately need to find time in Stavelot tho...

> Jason


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