rec.autos.simulators

"Damien Smith" <
    I think 100% linerity can be handled by the common(non-alien) sim racer
IF they turn down the steering lock{By INCREASING the steering lock
setting}[in the individual setups]<ha! EVERY BRACKET USED!!>  Go full
linear, but slow down the steering box...the two work together.
dave henrie

MadDAWG

I am of the opinion (i.e. thinking about logistics rather than hard,
mechanical facts) that more lock = finer control.

As to 270 degrees lock, I had 2 wheels that had 270, then a 180 which
felt dreadful, then back to 270.  I think it's what you get used to.
Looking at in-car footage, 270 degrees seem to be about same as F1 and
CART have - hands crossed at the tightest of hairpins...  I'll keep my
270 degree MOMO wheel thankyouverymuch, but I'd throw the pedals in a
skip if I could wire a bypass for the power...

Cheers,

Mark
Reading, UK

Here's the quick and dirty answer. First, this has little to do with the
numbers you see in a game as you calibrate your wheel. For example, the old
1.23 drivers for the original Ferrari wheel showed 0 to 1024 on the wheel
axis in N2002 and GPL. The new drivers show 0 to 4096 on the same wheel.
These numbers are software extrapolations of the real hardware numbers.
Whether or not there is any merit to the higher numbers is questionable, but
my guess is that it may help a tiny bit. The wheel is probably capable of
128 points of resolution, which if I recall, is as much as Windows can read
in controller panel. I don't have XP. I suppose it's possible it could read
256 points, but I doubt it does. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. The mouse
drivers are capable of more precision.
You have to believe that smoother laps are generally faster laps. The more
precisely you can control your car, the better your lap times will be. The
smoother the wheels steer, the better  your lap times will be. What's hard
about this is that you can't really feel the difference between a wheel that
has good resolution and one that doesn't. The differences are too small.
But, I assure you it will show up in your lap times. I've tested this with
several wheels, and the ones with better resolution always give the best lap
times. You can't measure resolution using Windows Controller panel and
counting the number of steps the cross hair makes as it moves from side to
side. It wasn't designed for this and is not an accurate indicator.
I'm going to take a couple liberties here to try to make this easier to
understand. Ok, your steering input isn't picked up as a smooth, continuous
motion. It's read in steps, or at different points along the axis. The 1st
liberty I'm going to take is to pretend that we only have 15 points of
resolution (forget about the 128). From lock to lock on your wheel, you have
only 15 points of resolution.  Now, let's assume that your steering wheel
has a 9.75" diameter (it's a pretty good average of the current FF wheels).
And, let's assume that it has a sweep of 180, lock to lock. So, the full
travel of your wheel, lock to lock, is about 15" (Pi X 9.75=30.6  X
.5=15.3). Since this distance is just a measurement, it doesn't matter
whether it's an arc or a straight line, so the 2nd liberty is to call it a
straight line.
Now, imagine a straight line 15" long drawn horizontally across your monitor
(I hope you have at least a 20" monitor ;)  and there is one  point at each
inch on the line. (15 points of resolution on a 15" line). As you're
driving, these are the only points you can steer to (or aim at). Your points
of resolution are spaced 1" apart.
Ok, now let's take the same scenario, but this time the wheel has a sweep of
270, lock to lock. Now your wheel travels 22" lock to lock. (270/360=.75)
(Pi X 9.75=30.6  X .75=22.5).
Your points of resolution are now spaced at 1 1/2". Try to imagine this
spacing on your imaginary line.You've just increased your point of
resolution spacing by 50%, or in other words, decreased your precision by
33%. (2:3 ratio).
It doesn't matter what figures we put in for the original resolution.
Whether it's 15 or 128 or 256, the result is still a 33% reduction in
accuracy. What you really want is to have the points as close together as
possible. The only thing we changed here is the sweep of the wheel. 180
verses 270.
A 270 steering arc is a great marketing tool, but it's not great for sim
racing.
It's late (after 2AM) so I won't get into the other factors, like wheel
size, etc., but next time you race try to see how many times, if ever, you
actually turn your wheel more than 90 to either side of top center. I bet
it will be never, unless you've gotten into trouble in a corner, but you've
lost it by then anyway.

Oh, one more thing. You can get a feel for what it's like driving with very
few points of resolution. It's not exactly what we just talked about, but it
will give you an exaggerated *feel* of what it's like.
Get into GPL, Options, Controls. Click on Calibrate Joystick. Move your
pedals back and forth fully, but only move your wheel about 3" on both sides
from top center. Click OK then try to race. Like I said, it's not the same
as what we just talked about as most of your steering arc will be unusable,
but our input will only pick up a few points of resolution and you'll get a
grossly overstated idea of how important steering precision is.

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

Ok, I have a wheel with 270 degrees lock to lock, but physically
reducing it to 180 degrees isn't really feasible... does reducing the
linearity help? Using your example, does it make the points of
resolution closer together near the center (and wider apart near full
lock)?
--
- Igor -

"Jussi 'Igor' Koukku"
   In that same vein, would reducing the amount of travel in the wheels
software(profiler) increase the smoothness?(not of the physical wheel but of
shortening the distance between steps)
dave henrie

Because I test and drive with several wheels, I've never had the problem of
getting comfortable with only 180 or 270. If you have only raced with 270,
it'll take some time to get comfortable with 180. People are analog, not
digital. We see and expect relationships with things we experience. For
example, if we look at a digital clock that says 12:30 PM, we see the time.
If we look at an analog clock that says the same time, we see several
relationships. We see that lunch time is 1/2 over. We see that we have 1/3
of our work day left. We see that it's been a very short time since we
looked at the clock the last time ;)    We see these things immediately.
With a digital clock it takes us a while to process just exactly what 12:30
means.  We're the same when steering. We expect a certain output or result
from a given input, and *most* people are amazingly similar when it comes to
this type of ergonomics. As such, a linear setting is the least upsetting
for us. You don't want your steering to be twitchy, but in most games you
should be able to drive with the steering set to fully linear. If it's
twitchy, set it a couple notches over to the non-linear side. When you set
it to non-linear, the wheels turn faster as they get closer to full left or
right. It might help to consider that the only time you are apt to have them
turned this far is if you're in trouble, and this is probably the worst
possible time to have them steer faster. In fact, you'd probably want just
the opposite to happen.

So, changing from non-linear to linear won't change the points of resolution
and make the wheel more accurate, it just changes how the steering behaves.
But, it may help because of other reasons.

Sometimes we have to be taught a proper technique.  For example, when I was
in high school I could run the high hurdles well enough to make the track
team and even win a couple races, but no matter how hard I tried, I didn't
get better. Then I was taught the proper technique. It felt awkward at first
and I was even slower than before. But, eventually I was able to beat my
previous best times. It's kind of like learning to go into a corner slow so
you can come out fast. Technique is important.
I'm sure there are some people who are such good racers, the top 1/4%, that
they could maintain their lap times even if you lowered their steering
resolution. Conversely, there are probably people that are so bad that
increasing the resolution won't help.
At one time, when all wheels were analog, there was a game port (add on card
you could buy)  that actually helped steering resolution. I can't think of
the name of it right now, but I'm sure someone out there remembers it. Act
Labs used to package it with their non FF, RS wheel.

I used to get about the same lap times with my Force RS as I did with the
LWFF, just a little less than with the Ferrari wheel. When I limited the arc
on the RS to 180 (easy to do), my lap times were as good as with the
Ferrari.

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

1) Following your line theory changing wheel diameter would have a similar
effect as increasing the range of motion on a smaller wheel.

2) When I calibrate my Momo wheel I hit the max of 1023 before the wheel
reaches its end of travel. So IMO the game can only see so much travel no
matter what the wheel is doing. If that's true that may explain why some
games drive different than others. Maybe they have different input maximums.

3) I would think that if you had a larger range to hit (so to speak)
wouldn't that make it easier to repeat and therefore be more consistent and
smother lap after lap?

When it comes down to it for me personally the greater travel has helped
instead of hurting me. I have had to make some changes to my game settings.
Most notably would be the liner setting. I now use 100% with my older wheel
I would run around 70 % to keep it from being to quick right of center.

MadDAWG

<snip>

While I agree that more precision makes for smoother driving, there is
something not quite right about this explanation of sweep angles
affecting precision.  The game does not know how much distance you have
to move the wheel along an arc, it merely knows number of number of
points coming out of the controller and spreads that over the available
lock of the virtual car.  Let's say that for your 15 points of
resolution the front wheels of the virtual car change direction by 15,
1 per point.  With the 180 sweep you would have to move the wheel 1
inch along the arc (or straight line) to turn the virtual car's wheels 1
degree.  With the 270 sweep, 1.5 inches of movement would be required
for the same 1 direction change. Increase it to 360 with 15 points and
you would still have 1 per point, no change in smothness, although
you'd have to saw madly at the wheel while driving. ;-)   So while the
larger sweep requires more movement of your hands, the precision (ie 1
steps in direction) in the game remains the same with no change in
smoothness.   Saying the spacing of the points you are aiming at on
screen change with wheel sweep, while keeping the same number of points,
is incorrect as the precision does not change, you'll still be aiming at
the same points, just needing more whell movement to get to each one.  
You could say that the larger sweep changes the effective steering ratio
(between controller wheel and front wheels of virtual car) and that may
not be preferable to some as you'd have to move the wheel more to change
the direction of the front wheels,  however it does not change
precision, you can still can only change the direction of the front
wheels in steps of 1.  Now if you increased the number of points over
the same wheel sweep, say to 150, the precision would be better as
there'd be 0.1 per point (ie the front wheels can change direction in
steps of 0.1), however you'd still have 1 direction change for the 1
inch (180 sweep) or 1.5 inches (270 sweep) of movement, it'd just be a
lot smoother due to the smaller steps.

Now if going from 180 to 270 sweep changed the number of points used,
then sweep could have an influence on precision.   In the end you'd want
the largest number of points over the range of wheel sweep that you'd
normally use while driving.

But maybe our definitions of precision and smoothness are different. Or
maybe one of us was up too late when we posted. :-)  Great site BTW,
looking forward to the next update.

Ken

The example I gave of drawing an imaginary line on your monitor was to help
you visualize what is happening. Yes, the game only knows the total number
of points of resolution. What we want to do is put as many of these points
as possible into the wheel movement we use most often. That's probably 45
to either side of top center.

(Setting the physics and science aside) Over the past 3 years, thanks to
hundreds of emails, I think I've compiled a pretty good profile of what is
working well for *most* people. There are a couple things that still don't
fit. Two people that each own both TSW and Redline wheels and pedals have
told me that they do faster lap times with the Redline equipment (although
one still prefers to use his TSW wheel for a reason he can't explain). Both
are high quality wheels and have similar characteristics, so I can't figure
out why driving with one should be faster than the other. I simply dismiss
it as too small a sample to be an accurate representation. In other words,
it's interesting, but the information has no real value.

Numbers and relationships can be confusing and if we start on the wrong
track, it's often hard to see where we went astray.  Here's an old, popular
example:
3 men go into a hotel to rent a room. The clerk tells them it'll be $30 so
they each give him $10.
The manager comes in and, seeing the room is rented, tells the clerk the
most they ever charge for a room is $25. He then gives the clerk $5 and
tells him to give it to the men.
The clerk is disgrunteled and figures he can't divide $5 evenly for 3 guys,
so he keeps a couple bucks for himself. Each guy gets a dollar back, so now
they've each paid $9 for the room, or a total of $27. The clerk has kept $2.
So we have $27 plus $2 = $29. But we started out with $30. Where did the
other dollar go?

(Gentlemen, please don't bother to answer this. It's only an example.)

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

<lots>

Slot, in a word, bollocks! :)

With 270 degrees, and the resolution point spread out more, this has the
effect of makes these points bigger and easier to hit consistently.
That's in theory, but in practice it's just 'cigarette papers' you are
talking about there.

You say you did tests, but all that proves is what system works best for
you. And that will not be optimum for all. Take your pet theory to the
nearest vet and have it put to sleep. :)

Gerry

"MadDAWG"  wrote

MadDAWG, I'm trying to see if I understand what you're saying. When you
asked if you had a larger "range" to hit,  do you mean a larger number of
points of resolution?

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

That's right. I was trying to show, visually on the screen, how the points
are spaced further apart 'in the normal driving sweep' of 45 to either side
of top center, and I was using the screen boundaries to imitate that sweep.
It was either a bad example or I just didn't make it clear enough.

Yes, exactly! The sweep on the Ferrari wheel, for example, is about 220 but
only 180 actually register (there is dead space at the end of travel).
However, I never hit the wheel locks. The only time I even come close to
using 180 is when I'm racing on dirt.

I'm not sure. I don't think so. I do consider wheel precision and driving
(or steering)  precision as somewhat different, but related. Wheel
precision is the actual points the wheel can send to Windows. Of  course, if
the wheel has cheap pots it may miss a point here and there and not perform
as it should. Wheel precision effects steering precision, but it isn't
steering precision. I hope I've never inferred wheel precision when I meant
steering precision.

What do you think, are we on the same track?

2 or 3 years ago I got a few emails that went something like this:
"I've been racing GPL with a TM wheel for about a year. I got so I could
race online and do ok, but then just leveled off. I didn't get any better
than mid 1:29's at Monza. 2 weeks ago I ordered a new pot from TM because
someone on ras told me they wear out.  I put it in and guess what. I just
broke into the high 1:28's :-) " ... then they'd usually ask me something
like 'are FF wheels really any good?'

This type of thing says a lot. It's not just that you should keep your wheel
maintained, but that wheel precision is very important for good lap times.
Some wheels will give you better lap times than others. And, high quality
pots are always better than cheap ones. Even in digital wheels. Of course,
in digital wheels the DAC is also important. The Ferrari is quite precise
and uses a 10bit DAC. As far as I know, the Force RS and both current
Logitech wheels also use a 10bit DAC (what I've been told, but they don't
publish the spec). I believe the LWFF used an 8bit DAC.
What's almost sad is that the cost would be insignificant to go to a 24bit
DAC like that used on a good AV receiver, but most manufacturers don't think
we're sophisticated enough to appreciate the small gain in precision. I
guess they're not hard core racers.

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com