rec.autos.simulators

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

ymenar

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by ymenar » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

dafney wrote

I just feel that the SimRacing community was humiliated by such comments.

Of course, He replied to me but I don't feel nessecary to me to post here
since it's private. But here's a modified post with my answers to him. I
feel each and every one of you  have access to this.

==========

<Him saying he won't lie and redo the review>

So why did you lied and say you turned the music off ? Don't say you played
with the words here, because it's a obvious lie.

<Him saying that Sierra didn't shipped the strategy book>

Hmm... you should have 2 manuals with it. They were all printed at the same
time, with the strategy manual even before the helpbook.  If you didn't got
it, I feel you should at least mention that a strategy manual is included in
the full release.

<Him saying that the marshalls should be hit when we pass on them, "a la
Quake">

Hmm, this ain't Carmageddon or whatever stupid arcade racing title.  This is
serious racing simulator, focused on the realistic feeling of the car
physics. Btw you didn't mentionned about the great online racing you can get
with 15 and more drivers ? Hmm...

<Him saying he's not an arcade racer but he loves realistic simulations like
Nascar2 and 1>

So why did you said in the review the car setup menu was too complicated or
so... ? It's at 75% the same as in Nascar Racing 2.

<Him saying that he can't win since the AI is too fast>

Is it, probably you didn't know. The AI adjusts to your racing style, in a
new AI way called the Global AI scaling, witch after about 1-2hours on each
tracks adjust to your racing style. Still you have to remember that you
can't set the AI to a % level like other racing simulations. This ain't a
canned AI where you can say "race at 86% of your laptimes".  This is racing
against realistic driver settings.

==================

On this, another email I got from him.

<Him saying that Mr.Mnard is quite against him and he didn't mentionned the
good points about the review posts here on r.a.s.>

Hmm... like 2 good responses on 16 posts ? That's like... 12%.

Of course your commenting on such points as the Letterbox screen without
knowing that it add-up a peripherical vision you don't have in previous
titles. That it's even present in Nascar Racing 2, but there's a 2d-cockpit
in place instead (obviously you should know that). That it's a place to put
the replay GUI and so. That the only additional thing you would have with
full-screen is more sky, since the***pit would be at the bottom of the
screen. And that the letterbox black spots will just be replaced by the
***pit in N3 also...

Your also saying that the game is too hard to get good at... sorry for you,
but many of us are able to win a full GrandPrix at any lenght.  As a former
race-car driver, I know it may  be hard for rookies and less experienced
drivers, but this ain't the market Papyrus was aiming for. Also, since you
say you obviously have knowledge of racing games, you should alread know
there's no music found in them, since the market doesn't care. Won't sell
more.

Btw, about the sounds, this is _how_ it was at that time. You heard nothing
more than the sound of the motor. And the skidding. You could hear muffled
engines from the other opponents, but that's all. So what do you want more ?
Unrealistic sounds ? This is not what the market for GPL wants. So why just
2 and a half stars for realistic sounds ?

I just feel humiliated by such comments on the present best racing simulator
EVER.  Hard-core racing simulators have a market and shouldn't really be
reviewed by average-gamers since they obviously aren't the targeted market.
The same goes for hard-core air simulators. I doubt people tell that Jane's
Longbow Apache is too hard for them in game reviews ? Nope, since they
understand that there's a market for it. It should be the same for racing
sims. Im somehow tired to see hard-core racing simulators being dissed
because they aren't enough "arcade". Geeze.

FYI, here's the URL of a Grand Prix Legends review made by an hard-core
simracer :

http://www.racesimcentral.net/:/mine/dsports/pc/grandprixlegends/review.html

And it exactly suits what us, the hard-core simracers, feels about it.

Of course, I understand that avault.com is more suited for a 3dgamer point
of view, so I will just restrain (as many of us in other parts of the
simracing community has decided) myself from checking this website anymore.
No more credibility for me.

In my opinion, as always. But thanks for at least reading the post. I feel I
have the right of my opinion, as a long time avault.com reader.

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.racesimcentral.net/
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

doktor

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by doktor » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Even more of a reason to say it was a bad review!

Contradicting comments!:
1) "I can say that the music does nothing to set the mood of the game nor
does it give me any
sense of enjoyment just for music's sake. I quickly turned it off. "
2) "There is no music in the game so I didn't rate this section"

So did he NOT play the game, write the article, then take a quick try
playing the game, and realized his mistake? If so, that is disgusting for a
reviewer to conduct a review this way, AND WHY THE HECK DID HE NOT DELETE
THE FIRST SECTION???

(Oh... I read at the APEX that he claimed he didn't receive "Four-Wheel
Drift" from Sierra with his review copy. If this is true, shame on Sierra.
But he should still make amends to his review to let the readers know that
they WILL be getting setup and track help.

doktorB
http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl


>either you are extremely irresponsible, or the author was made to
>realize his rediculous err. here is the clip from the "review" regarding
>MUSICAL SCORE:

>Musical Score: There is no music in the game so I didn't rate this
>section. Heck, the game is supposed to be set in the sixties -- they
>missed their chance to get some really good music in the game to
>provide a mood. It obviously would have been inappropriate while
>racing, however.

Cib

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Cib » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

I don't really agree with this, I am not the most hard core simster in
the world :) but I love GPL,  the training cars are just fantastic to
learn on without overpowering yourself with the GP cars which I wonder
if the reviewer from avault did.  I didn't like N2 that much and
F1GP-2 was fun but I could never learn to brake or shift myself.  With
GPL I started out on the Novice Trainer with shifting help on and was
enjoying myself very much.  I was improving my lap times and wanted to
try and shift myself to see if I could get better times.  It wasn't
easy to shift myself at first but it is totally rewarding now and it
didn't take that long to learn.  This is the first racing sim I can
say that I have a sense of accomplishment in racing.  I also LOVE the
four wheel drift book(think MOST games of ANY genre should include a
manual that good!) Anyway I guess what I am trying to say is although
I am not a complete novice at racing sims this is the first sim that
made me a better racer and I have to give credit to the inclusion of
the trainer cars in GPL for that.  I would have given up on the game
if I had to start with GP cars but now I am up to the Advanced Trainer
looking forward to buzzing around in that GP Ferarri within the next
week or so :)  I think beginners can get a lot out of this sim if they
are willing to stick with the trainers for the first few hours of the
sim.  I have spent about 8-10 hours on the novice trainers and have
just moved to the advanced.  Also I don't have the time to sit for 2
hours straight let alone the 8 or 10 some guys have said they do on
this newsgroup :) I usually play for about 45mins - 1hour at a time.

Thanks for reading and thanks Papy for a great sim!

Cyriel


John Walla

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by John Walla » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00



Sorry, back of the class for you m'laddo :-)

Because it is a general site and therefore, by definition, visited by
a wide cross section of people, you target the review toward the
people who are likely to be interested in that product, or at least
make mention of the disparity between what fans of the genre will
think and what the general public will.

By your definition only "auto-sim fanatic monthly" will give GPL a
good review, whereas in fact most "general" mags and sites rated it
very highly indeed. In other words, the review was written by someone
with no clue what he was doing. Ask me to review a flight sim and I'll
tell you they're all ***- that's why I would have the decency never
to take on the job of doing so.

Cheers!
John

Paul Gra

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Paul Gra » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Reply to my e-mail(he must have been bombarded).

Paul,

The music "incident" as it is now being termed was an editing goof on my
part. It is text that was supposed to be in my other review of Red Baron
3D.
Sorry about that. The music didn't play any part in my overall score
anyway.
Sierra also forgot to send me the additional book on car setups so what I
said was true for what they sent me.
As for the other things I'm sorry we disagree, but I call them like I see
them.

Craig

-----Original Message-----


Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 2:55 PM
Subject: AVault - Letter to Staff

>Name: Paul Grave

>Message:
>I usually use your game reviews as guide to which games are good and
which
>games are bad.  Unfortunately my opinion of reviewers has taken a assive
>hit after reading your review of Grand Prix Legnends.

>The reviewers states the musical score is 'spartan at best' so he turned
it
>off, there is NO opition to turn off any musical score because there is
NO
>music!

>Also, your reviewer states (this is almost funny) "The manual has
nothing
>in it to show people what each setting does".  There is a whole manual
>dedicated to setting up the car, describing the cars and tracks!

>Moving on to the actual ratings, they're a joke, to critise a game
because
>you can't play it is totally wrong.  Yeah, the game is difficult but no
>more difficult that Jane's F-15 or Longbow 2, it is a simulator not an
>arcade racer and it doesn't pretend to be.

>There is no question that this is the best racing simulation ever, there
>isn't even a shred of doubt about that.

Brian Shor

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Brian Shor » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00




> >>He acknowledges the great physics engine, but also points out that it's not
> > for
> >>the faint of heart. GPL is for the hard core simmer, and it is not a mass
> >>market title.

> >Exactly - so why does he review and rate it as if it was?

> >Cheers!
> >John

> Because is a general 3D *** web site, and it is reviewed as it is likely
> to be recieved by it's audience?

> Z.

And I'll add, is this game MARKETED towards hard core simmers?  I didnt see anything on
the box... maybe I should look again.  Also, as I made in a post on gpl.gamestats.com,
every other sim has an "arcade" mode for beginners, or people that dont want to deal with
a harder mode of driving.

Brian Short

ymenar

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by ymenar » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Brian Short wrote

Hmm let see...

- Trainee car
- Advanced-trainee car
- Throttle help
- Braking help
- Shifting help
- Murasama
- BRM
- Coventry

'Nuff said.

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Chris Schlette

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Chris Schlette » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

No its not.  if the game sucked, then it deserves a bad review. However, it
doesnt suck its just quite hard and takes a bit of practice which doesnt
mean it deserves a bad review.

And aiming at the general public...bah, you can still tell the public that
this is a great sim, but its just not for the feint at heart and not whine
and snivel about it.



>>Hmm let see...

>>- Trainee car
>>- Advanced-trainee car
>>- Throttle help
>>- Braking help
>>- Shifting help
>>- Murasama
>>- BRM
>>- Coventry

>>'Nuff said.

>You can't race with the trainer cars, and you
>get your ass kicked using any of the other stuff. Hell, you get your ass
kicked
>anyway.

>GPL is hard core. That is reason enough for it to get a bad review, if the
>review is aimed at the general public. the general public should not buy
this
>game.

>Regards,
>Krabby

ymenar

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by ymenar » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Krabmeat and I wrote :

Yes you can.  Hmm and tell me, aren't what I listed HELPS for less
experienced drivers, whatever they bring ? Oh and the way you say that you
get your arse kicked, isn't this like _other_ games I know like Tie Fighter
that doesn't let you move up a level if you use invinsibility and unlimited
ammo ? What's the differences ? tell me... TELL ME ?????????

So you want to win "out-of-the-box" ? You can't accept the fact of loosing,
or at least understand you need to start before with under-powered cars or
so ? Funny, Im able with PRACTICE to get easy 1:31's with the Coventry and
1:32's with the BRM. That's enough for almost a top spot in qual with
realistic AI.  Oh yeah... 2 and a half stars !!!

???? So your saying the general public shouldn't buy Jane's Longbow Apache ?
Because it's realistic ? Who are you to say they shouldn't buy it ? And why
not.. there's plenty of helps I listed to satisfy the general public.

This review was pathetic. If anybody doesn't want to get up and do actions
against this website I will do. I don't care what support I get or not, but
I will not stop unless they... :

1) Public apology
2) Re-do the review about how it is seriously (just check out Randy's GPL
review at http://www.racesimcentral.net/:/mine/dsports/pc/grandprixlegends/review.html
. Now THAT'S a real review of GPL).

Understand that Avault is a BIG *** website and can seriously hurt the
sellings of the game with such comments. I mean... 2 and half stars....
That's with Power F1 and so. How humiliating for us to be treated like that.

You know... if 1500 people don't buy GPL because they read this.... that's
1500 x  ZXY the number of dollars that go to Papyrus that won't be spent in
the future on upcoming titles. Just think that it's 1500 x 10$... That's
alot of money that won't be spend on N3, and whatever product at Papyrus.
Im just saying a number out of my head. It could be more than 1500, and it
could be less than 1500. But still, if _WE_ as a racing community, don't get
as a group and let them ridiculise us, YOU are making a bad move to Papyrus.

Boycott AVAULT.com

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.racesimcentral.net/
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Chris Schlette

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Chris Schlette » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

<rotfl> Not....why would you be reviewing RedBaron3D? Its nothing but the
patched version of RedBaronII that has been reboxed.

But it was a bad attempt at a bad recovery..and why would Sierra leave out
parts, especially the important manual.

I dont buy it....

Chris Schlette

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Chris Schlette » Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:00:00

His only good point

B.S.  Your lap times and the satisfaction that you are able to get better
should be all you need.  Practice some, dont spend 5 minutes at the game and
try to review it...read the manual, read some suggested literature..get
online on newsgroups, forums, etc and ask a few questions...read some
websites. Practice some more.

Try the trainer.  If you cant stay on the track, then racing isnt for
you.....however, they should have included in the GUI an AI scaler to reduce
the AI better.

GPL is 1967...this wasnt setup wizardy.  The manual does a good explanation
of setups, the setups included are decent. LEARN.

Not really. Learn to drive the thing, you cant "dumb" down real life.  And
hey, there are training cars....you cant learn to run before you walk.

Krabme

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Krabme » Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:00:00


>Hmm let see...

>- Trainee car
>- Advanced-trainee car
>- Throttle help
>- Braking help
>- Shifting help
>- Murasama
>- BRM
>- Coventry

>'Nuff said.

You can't race with the trainer cars, and you
get your ass kicked using any of the other stuff. Hell, you get your ass kicked
anyway.

GPL is hard core. That is reason enough for it to get a bad review, if the
review is aimed at the general public. the general public should not buy this
game.

Regards,
Krabby

Don Burnett

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Don Burnett » Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Yikes, you telling me I ain't in the general public? I bought the sim,and
find it fantastic. I think the beef here is that reviewer obviously spent
way too little time for an honest review of GPL. Yes, the car is tougher to
drive than anything we have seen so far, but it ain't undriveable. With some
patience in learning the track, you can get up to speed and have a blast
with this sim.
Papyrus has set a new standard with GPL, and looks like to me it's leaving
the rest in the dust.

--
Don Burnette
Palmetto Racing
Dburn on Ten
AOLL Iroc Administrator


>You can't race with the trainer cars, and you
>get your ass kicked using any of the other stuff. Hell, you get your ass
kicked
>anyway.

>GPL is hard core. That is reason enough for it to get a bad review, if the
>review is aimed at the general public. the general public should not buy
this
>game.

>Regards,
>Krabby

Dave Henri

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Dave Henri » Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:00:00

   Well then, lets just take back that Flight Sim of the year award that was
given by
just about every mag/critic/website to Longbow2.  a newbie CANNOT jump in
and
complete the campaigns.
  One of the previous Kings of Racing Sims....ICR2.  Noway, no how an arcade
racer type player could jump in and finish a lap at Portland without plenty
of
lawnmowing.   That's the whole point.  If you want a sim, you want a
challenge, if you
want POD or REDLINE RACER, then go for it.  But don't denegrate a product
because
it acheives EXACTLY what it attempted.  Simulating Grand Prix Racing.
I suppose Papy could take the exacting  physics model of gpl and adapt it to
something more
in line with this fellow's ability.  ...
   Comming this Xmas...  Bumper Car Legends
dave henrie

Zonk

GPL - Avault review = 2 1/2 stars - **1/2

by Zonk » Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:00:00




>>>>He acknowledges the great physics engine, but also points out that it's not
>>> for
>>>>the faint of heart. GPL is for the hard core simmer, and it is not a mass
>>>>market title.

>>>Exactly - so why does he review and rate it as if it was?

>>Because is a general 3D *** web site, and it is reviewed as it is likely
>>to be recieved by it's audience?

>Sorry, back of the class for you m'laddo :-)

>Because it is a general site and therefore, by definition, visited by
>a wide cross section of people, you target the review toward the
>people who are likely to be interested in that product, or at least
>make mention of the disparity between what fans of the genre will
>think and what the general public will.

>By your definition only "auto-sim fanatic monthly" will give GPL a
>good review, whereas in fact most "general" mags and sites rated it
>very highly indeed. In other words, the review was written by someone
>with no clue what he was doing. Ask me to review a flight sim and I'll
>tell you they're all ***- that's why I would have the decency never
>to take on the job of doing so.

>Cheers!
>John

Er,... i would by no means describe the avault as a "general *** site".
It's more in the VE3d neck of the woods, than gamecenter, or something else.

In any case, any review is but one persons point of view.

Z.


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.