rec.autos.simulators

What I'm waiting for is a racing sim that includes post race***fights.
This would truly capture the essence of NASCAR.

There was mention of a post race "doom" mode, but it was an mis-use
of the term. The player just gets to walk around the pits and track post
race. To me doom mode would be having a BFG (big friggin gun) to blast
away while you walked around.

Sim racers (like flight simmers) are a small but VERY loyal bunch.

I agree with the previous post - it is the most immersive online ***
experience I have ever had.

I remember reading something about that, too, but I can't remember which
title. At the time, I thought it was a decent idea...until I realized
that it would be pointless unless used as some sort of a spectator mode
for online races. *shrugs*

-Will

My point was that some online racing games, like NR2003 have a tendency
to consume more time than other online racing games. Sorry for the bad
humor, as there are people that are unemployed for various reasons
(disablity), and if I were in their condition, I'd spend more time with
online ***. I've also chatted with a few online players that sleep
less than 6 hours a day, something I could never do. 55 years old and
I sleep about 9 hours a day.

Forgot to post a link. This group includes some of the fastest
racing sim players. But when I look at their forum, there isn't
a lot of activity.

http://www.teamredline.co.uk

As mentioned, for players like me that don't play in leagues
(I don't want to make a commitment unless I'm really willing to
put in the time to do it right), trying to play racing sims
online is difficult because of all the add-ons. In my case
most of my online racing is with the arcade games, as there
are usually no add-ons, and the races go quick.

Similarly, the number of arcade racing game players online also
seems to be diminishing. The first Need For Speed games with
true online racing, with stats, chat area, and list of races,
(NFS4 1999 and NFS5 2000) lasted about 4 years, before it
was shut down and there were serveral hundred players that
were active or semi active. In the case of NFS7 Underground
1, it lasted about 2 years, and the number of online players
shrunk to less than 50. NFS8 stated with 1000 players online
the first night of the demo, but was down to 300 players
in about 3 or 4 weeks. The official game split up US and
European servers, and again less than 50 players within about
2 years. The latest version, Carbon, lasted about 4 weeks,
hundreds of players online in my time zone for the first 2
or 3 weeks, to  less than 100 just 5 weeks after the game
was released. Since the latest releases of NFS are world
wide releases, it may just be a USA issue, as there are
over 5000 players with online stats, just for NFS Carbon.

Jeff Reid enlightened us with:

LSI (I could have the wrong set of letters/developer name) is the physics
engine that the games are coded from, that is "shared" from gtr gtl, then
version 2 of this engine {as I hear it loosely refered to} is rFactor, GTR2
(as far as I know, from reading).

ok, I was joking around but you pretty much disquallified yerself from
having any rational posts about if NR guys have a jobs or life, as you have
conceeded that by your terms, nobody online *** has a life except Quake
gamers (LOL).

Ok I know NR doesnt need a defender...  So I wont jump on and stop you with
the parrotheaded thoughts of "ARCADE" goddam if that dont = DEGATONA aids
enabled racing as you can get...

what kind of talent then do you say there is to winning anything in these
arcade racing sims where IMHO the utter lack of talent nor experience is
rewared.  I mean how many times in any "experience" in your life gonna say,
"ok I can beat this guy if I hit the nitrous button 46 times-> jump over
this mailbox, grab the revolving door in front of this airport and let it
swing the car over to get the Jet turbine pack...  Creative?  yeah ok maybe,
but talented?  well, HELL no.  Especially when you download step by step
cheats or books that have these cheats placed there by the authors that
NOBODY knows about until they tell you...

Anyway Im just funning around, I like watching your videos, they give me
hope.

Keep the emulated/simulated_shiney_side_up,
later...

www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual visitors
every day.

--
David G Fisher

Everyone please DONATE if you can :)
(before you ask, yes every month or two)

==--==

You later explained you meant ISI. The basis for most of the current sims.
My biggest complaint is the lack of tire noises in the replays. Even
budget arcade racers like Ford Racing 2 have tire noises in their replays.

rFactor online races normally don't take 1/2 hour per race, at least the few
races I've done online. That's the issue with ovals, it takes a lot of laps
before differences in talent show up, which is time consuming.

Then again, there were a few years where they ran a once a year event with
Grand Prix Legends, 1000km at NordSchleife in Grand Prix Legends, that's
44 laps at around 8 minutes per lap (for the fast guys), with a required total
of 40 minutes of break time, so the event lasted almost 7 hours even for the
better players. It was reported that no divorces occurred from this event.

When I did check out NR2003 online open servers, most of the 300 or so players
were running DEGATONA events, 1/2 hour per race, and with assists on, the
key was qualifying, avoiding wrecks, and working with a group or getting
lucking on pit exits to end up getting back into the draft. Personally I
would prefer the other players to be using assists, to reduce the crash
fest factor.

It's my opinion that the DEGATONA with assists on, no talent required, a
chance that almost anyone can win is what draws the most of the 300 players
I saw online. There were very few running Watkins Glen, and fewer still
that could run 1:14's (if I'm remembering the times correctly).

OK, someone has to defend the arcade racers games.

I play both arcade and simulation type racing game and enjoy both. Few players
complain about reality with first person shooter games, and I feel the
same way about racing games, I like both types. Realism is limited as there
is no feel. If I want realisim, I can head down to a local indoor gokart
track (k1speed). Those karts pull well over 1 g in the turns, the pace is
very quick, and drifting them is key to getting good lap times, and a lot of
fun, but's it cost more than a buck a lap, and the laps go quick, about
22 to 23 seconds per lap (for me, the top guys are about 1 second faster).
Still it's cheaper than taking a real car to a track and having to buy
a second set of wheels and tires.

The cheat codes aren't used for online racing. Some players use trainers,
but this is outright cheating, as with any game.

The arcade games require skill, but a different kind of skill. The
main differences are that it's impossible or nearly so to power oversteer
a car in most of the arcade racers, although some of them (like
Ford Racing 2 in advanced mode), are more realistic, and you can spin
the cars, and lock up the brakes. It's really not much diferent than sim
games with some or most assists on. The other difference for some arcade
games is the grip level (high), and the pace (quick).

Note that the go-karts at that indoor track have similar limitations.
If you hang out the rear end too far, the computer in the kart cuts
out power to the engine, to prevent a full power head on into a barrier
after a spin. To avoid heavy collisions from getting rear ended, the
brakes are limited to about 1/3rd g, (note that the cars pull well
over 1 g in the turns).

Some of the Need For Speed games do involve shortcuts. Introduced with
NFS3 - Hot Pursuit, and a big part of NFS4 - High Stakes, it was a key
part of those games. Considering the track shorcuts are described in the track
presentation, (when's the last time a game included track presentations?),
people knew of them. For example, this description of Celtic Ruins
for NFS4 - High Stakes, and a lap.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

The physics of High Stakes was absurd. There was more lateral grip than
longitudinal grip, and it seemed that both worked independently, as
you could steer hard and brake for a insanely rapid decrease in speed.
Then there were aspects that made NFS3 and the faster NFS4 challenging.
Going airborne for even an instant would slow down a car. Brushing any
object would slow down a car. This game was all about timing, since
you spent most of the time in turns with the steering pegged, so timing
the turn in so you could get through narrow shortcuts while at full
throttle with the steering pegged did require skill, but a different
kind of skill than real racing. Some of the cars required some time
to setup for a turn, (similar to GPL). You had to run clean laps with
precise speed over rises (to avoid going airborne), to achieve top lap
times. NFS4 also had features that are sorely lacking in many other racing
games. A ghost car feature where you could save a run, and then run against
it. A controller based replay system, that could be interchanged with other
players, proving that the game played the same on all PC's since it
was controller input based (meaning that when watching a replay, it
was really watching a race using the stored controller inputs from the
originator), and proving that a lap record run was done legally.
Day / night / weather settings for all tracks. For variety, online
racing included knockout mode: 8 players, 7 races, the "loser" of each
race drove a truck (usually in reverse direction) to crash into the
remaining racers, ending up with 6 trucks and 2 racers. It was a fun
diversion. Track presentations as already mentioned.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I never owned NFS1 or NFS1SE, but NFS2 and NFS2SE had the most realistic
physics of the series when run in "simulation" mode. Braking distances
were resonably long, and driving lines were similar to what you'd normally
use for a racing sim. The difference is that there was no power oversteer,
just brake induced understeer that would send you off track if you braked
too late. The tracks were fantasy tracks, and the graphics are dated, but
for my first PC based racing game, it was fun. This is from a 1997 game:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

The underground games (1 and 2) jumped in on the fast and furious fad.
U1 had limited tracks with short lap times, 40 to 60 seconds, and bouncing
off walls.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

U2 was a better, with a huge range. Street X was like indor go-kart racing,
lap times from 9 seconds to 30 seconds, while normal circuit tracks ranged
from 50 seconds to over 3 minutes per lap. There was also a outrun mode
which was just humorous, as the game designers intended for a player to
slowly pull away from the AI car, but the players figured out a few
alternatives that were a lot more fun:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Most wanted went back to daytime and brought back the pursuits. What better
way to teach responsible driving than stuff like this?

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

The lastest version, NFS Carbon, went back to the shortcuts, but these aren't
the narrow ones like with NFS4, and you can use a "scout" driver to show
a player where all the shortcuts are.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I like the racing sims as well, but realize that my skills limit me to only
getting within 5% to 7% of the expert racers.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Cheers, uwe

--
GPG Fingerprint:  2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F  67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Anyway, I feel I am being off topic... So I'm stop talking. ;-)