rec.autos.simulators

   Oh, I don't know; I believe the numbers of Nascar Racing 3 simmers around
in '99 might have had something to do with it too <wink>

Jeff Reid enlightened us with:

I sure wish the Richard Burns Rally developers would take what they learned
about rally, and make the sim to emulate CORR (Rough offroad truck racing on
closed courses in front of stadiums, called the Motocross Of pickups by some
of us fans...)

timmy thompson enlightened us with:

NR2003 online is very time consuming. On the open servers, each race
takes about 1/2 hour, warmup, qualify, then race. So 4 races would
take 2 hours. I remember reading about some players that spend 20
hours or more a week online. Maybe the league play is different.

Maybe I should have stated "have jobs or sleep", it was just
referring to the amount of time that NR2003 can consume.

The point I was getting at is most of the racing sim community is
an older, aging group, and probably spending less time *** than
they used to. We still buy the games, but don't spend as much time
on each game as we used to.

Ok I could say, I see what you meant.  that is semi true for any online
stuff, is it not?

I  dont think it is nearly as bad as LSI??? based online sim'n, so I assume
you had some familiar/similiar background.  I personally can get "into a
decent pickup race server" within minutes...   albeit with me having kind of
the majority of popular tracks already, but then again if I dont have the
latest incarnation of DegaTona this server is running, I at least know what
I am looking for, and kind of know where to look for the tracks.

What kills me is, like rFactor and GTLegends, last 2 weeks, I go online fri
night or sat night, not that many servers to pick from (that is, with anyone
on them).  half are passworded, BUT!!!!  the tip of the fricken iceberg,
nonstandard tracks DO NOT show up as unstandard tracks or any clue that I
need to download it, that is, unless you have already downloaded it then you
might know that Dijon is actually Adelade?

All I have to say in response is, How many freaking times I tried to join
Zolder to be told I dont have the fracking track?  trouble shooted the
game/firewall/antivirus etc, and days later still have no idea waht the hell
is going on with "zolder"...   Where's the tidbit of information, like what
track was the dang server running?  why do I need to know the name of the
friggin server host, and the name of the server????  in multiplayer lists?
I never could figure that out, why not name the server and then description
of the cars you pic (as in GTL 65 or not 65 or both, then the mods, then
#players, then level, followed by ping?

I would have to conceed to you Jeff, that in many game except NR03, about 15
minutes into tryin' to run online on "other sim's idea" of how online
matchmaking should be done, has me shutting off the computer in total
frustration, well ok more like loading Nascar and going online or playing
RBR offline..

Jeff Reid enlightened us with:

Tim Wheatley enlightened us with:

-Larry

-Larry

Well one thing a lot of arcade racing games have going for them
is races typically only take 2 to 7 minutes, and the waiting period is
about 30 seconds, so in 20 to 30 minutes, you can get 8 to 15 races in
depending on the tracks chosen (most players avoid the longer races).

Sort of like indoor go-kart racing, where lap times are less than 30
seconds, and races are about 10 to 15 laps, a quick fix.

Quake 3 arena online also went pretty quick, I think most matches
only lasted about 5 minutes.

What is LSI?

I don't even try to race these games online, as I don't have a collection
of tracks or the car sets. I did do rFactor online before the mods were
released, but not that much. The last time was just a couple of races
with the PCC (porsche) mod.

Most of my *** time is spent offline, although I will go online when
a new game is first released. However, I already know that I'm about
5% to 7% slower than the experts, and the online racing isn't going to
help me get faster as well as hot lapping or looking at replays. The
ghost feature in the games that have it seems to help the most.

One exception is NR2003 open servers at Daytona / Talledega, no driving talent
is required if you turn on the assists. The main focus is to qualify far
enough up front to avoid the crash fest, pitting quickly, and exiting
into a draft. I haven't raced NR2003 online in a year or two, but
the lack of talent required is probably why the open online servers were
so popular, as almost anyone can win one of those races. If I remember
correctly there were up to 300 players online on popular nights. The league
play is different though, and obviously the road courses are going to
take just as much skill as any of the racing sims.

I use head phones when I play racing games to cut down on the sound
of my creaking bones as I move the controller.

I wouldn't say I've lost the thrill of racing, per se. I enjoy
competition today just as I did years ago when I started with Indy 500
and from there into the NASCAR sims. But, like a lot of people, once you
spend enough time in the virtual seat you pick up on things that are
lacking in a sim. This could be anything from graphical eye candy, track
modelling, tire physics, AI, etc.

Personally, the first thing I look for are "correct" auto/world physics.
Then it's track modelling and finally AI. The pinnacle of NASCAR physics
was NR2003, even if it was off to a certain extent. I really have no
gripe there. Track modelling has always been exceptional. My trouble
spot is the AI. Papy got the visual effect of AI physics down well
enough, but when it comes to using their brain effectively (such as at
Talladega), they don't use a "pack" mentality. Further, patience doesn't
seem to be a factor at various points in a race. AI is what kills a
racing sim for me.

Lately, I've been spending a lot of time with NASCAR 2005 for the PS2
again ($40 down the drain for NASCAR 07, it's garbage). It too has
ignorant AI. As does 07 and 06. Their AI don't appear to analyze what
you, the player, is doing to be fast on the track. Be it braking later
or sooner, methodically passing in all stages of the race, or going all
out aggressive in the remaining laps. On the flip side, the grudges and
alliances was a neat feature to begin with and it's effect on how hard
the AI will race you for position. I won't get into the arcadeness
(physics and tracks) of those titles, but I will say I would lighten my
opinion of those games if they hammered down the handling (unlike 07
displays, stock cars don't handle like Mack trucks) and equally
important: the AI.

I guess, in a way, the AI for the EA NASCAR games are more fun to race
against than Papy's AI. The environment doesn't feel as sterile as NR2003.

In closing, my interaction with AI is how I gauge my competative side.
Against humans in a sim is entirely different, of course. But for single
player, I need human emulation (emotions, strategy, communication) in
the computer opponents. What we have now barely suffices. I just hope it
will get better.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone in my thinking. :)

-Will