rec.autos.simulators

I live in Australia, and use an analogue 56k USR serial modem, which i
have capped at 26400 baud and so far, i have had dozens of warp-free
connections into USA based hosts with N3.
I have also had a few warpy ones, but the warpy ones i have been in,
were warpy for everyone else as well, even those with cable, not just
me.

I have my modem capped at 26400 baud and have taken the time to setup
my on-line DUN for as good & error free as possible connections, and so
far, nearly all my on-line experiences with N3 have been as good as N3
on-line can get..
Normally my pings to the USA based hosts are in the region of 260 to
400 ms  and providing the host has taken steps to tune his own
connection, then that level of latency has been perfect for me from
Australia to the USA, in N3 on-line racing...

Up untill tonight, i had not even bothered to try hosting any events,
but i gave it a try tonight, with my modem still capped at 26400 baud.
I set up a race at Michigan and also limited the ammount of people who
could join to four..

( i did not set a client latency cap, nor will i ever do so )

Three other USA based drivers joined my race at Michigan and the
connections were as good as a lan, i kid you not.. !!!
There was NO warping at all, from any of the three clients who joined
my race, and they all said i was just as solid as they were.
One of the drivers was following me with only inches to spare between
us, at speeds over 200 mph and not once were we ever in danger of
touching, through latency issues...
This was all done through my analogue modem at 26400 baud, with me
based in Australia and the three other clients based in the USA.
The only thing i will add here, is that the clients who joined my race,
all know about on-line issues and how to fine tune their connections
etc. for on-line play.
Also, it is obvious that clients in N3, do not require more than 8800
baud of bandwidth each, or it would have been impossible for the three
clients who did join my race to do so, seen as how i had my modem
capped at 26400 baud..

So, to cap this off, i now know, that a ping of up to 350 ms, from an
analogue modem can/will be perfect for N3 on-line, if steps have been
taken by the modem user to fine tune his/her DUN etc..
I have noticed very slight warping, once my ping gets closer to 400ms,
but it is very slight and hardly noticeable to the other clients that i
have questioned in regards to my connection quality at the time..

So, maybe, just maybe, any N3 hosts reading this post,  might try
upping their latency caps a bit to a more reasonable level, like 400ms
maximum, if they really feel they need to kid themselves that latency
capping will cure their on-line woes anyway..
I have proved to myself, and others, that latency capping N3 below 350
ms, or restricting clients to cable only etc.. will not cure warping,
but education on connection issues will.

N3 has got the potential to be a good on-line sim, on an international
scale, so why do hosts insist on setting ridiculously low capping
limits on their races, that do nothing, apart from keep out
international sim racers who would like to be able to enjoy N3
on-line...  ?
The answer is simply ignorance of connection issues.!!!!
I am not being peevish etc.  i am simply trying to get the message
across, that a latency of 300 to 350 ms etc.  will work perfectly, in
N3 on-line, as my testing over the last 3 weeks has proven to me.

Obviously, we can't control the routers to or from the host and client,
so there will be times when we should disconnect ourselves and try
again, but at least, i know now, that N3 on-line can work, and work as
good for a medium ping modem client as it does for a low ping cable
client.

This can only be good news to us all, and thanks have to go out to
Papyrus for making on-line racing over an unstable medium, like the
internet, possible to us, firstly with GPL and now with N3.
The future is looking bright.  :)
Cya on-line..
Cheers,
Ron

<snip again>

Will you please detail the steps you took to tweak your DUN?

--
Thanks
Michael Horton
Webmaster of
http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/gpl/
Home of the F2/F3 Hotlaps

and

http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/html/
HTML for Begineers

--
Mike Johansson
NeOhio SCCA

For example, DirecPC Satellite is useless for *** because the latencies
(the up channel and the latency from the Satellilte itself) are
astronomical.  Measured in _seconds_.

Secondly, ISDN may not be as fast as cable or adsl, but in my experience it
provides the lowest latencies of all the connections.

56k modems suck if they are set to connect at 56k speeds.  Wayyyy too many
re-transmits.  They need to be set to connect at 24k or at most 26.4k.

-Larry

 Faster connections will have better chances at low latency, but it
will not make one bit of difference if they are losing packets or
finding bad routers on their way to the host.  :)
Latencys of up to 350ms are not an issue at all, in any way, and both
cable and modem users can achieve that figure easily..

The guys that would be the cause of the most warping, are the ones that
are getting bad Routers on route to the host, the ones that have bad
ISP providers, the ones that are overtaxing their CPU's, the ones that
have not set up their connections properly etc etc..
It has nothing at all to do whether a client is on cable or modem,
they both need to go through routers etc. to get to the host..
(i know, not if they are on the same hub, but how often is that ?)

On average, a cable client should have a lower ping than a modem
client, but latencys of up to 350 or so are not the problems, it's the
quality of the client's connections and also the way the host is
operating his machine & connection, where the problems begin.
"Yes",  i did say "host", we all have to do our bit towards connection
quality, both client and host...
Sure, high latencys do cause problems, i am not going to deny that for
one minute, but i am not talking about  high latencys here...

How do we weed out bad connections ?

We educate people on what to do with their connections...
We also try to educate hosts what damage they are doing to the on-line
community as a whole, by setting latency capping too low, because how
can we weed out bad connections and fix problems with clients having
high latencys and poorly setup connections if the clients in question
cannot join a race to sort their problems out.
Also, a lot depends on the host, how he/she has their machine set up,
if they are overtaxing their CPU, through too much eye candy, are they
running background programs etc. etc.
Good on-line play and warping issues are as much the responsibility of
the host as they are of the client.
We all need to help each other, not hide on-line problems under a low
latency capping door mat..
I have seen hosts complain about people warping, only to find out when
questioned, that the host is running at 1024 x768, has all graphics on,
is also running background programs etc etc on a outdated CPU, and they
wonder why clients are warping.
The problems don't always start with the client.!!
Cheers,
Ron

I enjoyed reading your posts and admit learning some.  I had a friend email
me this link for tweaking cable modems and thought others may be
interested.  Check it out... http://www.speedguide.net/

I have a question from your posts.. I run at 1024x768 res. and don't have
"many" warping problems with clients..  I also know that some of the
clients have lower resolution set on there systems and everyone can turn
select graphics on and off.. Does this really make a difference?  I don't
think that information is transmitted back and forth...

I believe that the routers and unstableness if the internet is the root of
our connection problem.  I have had 20 cars running and watched 2 or 3 of
that bunch have warp problems at exactly the same time.  This tells me that
those 2 or 3 are connected through the same routers at some point and that
point is having the problem.  (just like what you said)

Hitch-Hiker

I'm connecting from Japan and regular get a ping around 250ms but so may
hosts are setting 100 - 150ms as their max latency. This is just ridiculous.
I know I can have solid connects from my days on VROC and Warbirds with this
ISP but many hosts are ruining it for us international racers.

Come on hosts - please set realistic max latency settings. It's the quality
of the connection, not the ping time that induces warping. I think 400ms is
a much better setting.

Darren

<lots of good stuff snipped>

Hi,
Yeah i remember joining a couple of your races at Taladega, where only
one or two of the clients were warping, but your car was very stable to
me, so presumably mine was to you as well.
I will admit to you now, that my ping to you was around the 370ms, or
there abouts :))   and i didn't have any warping on your host at all..
It's a good host, i tend to look for your races now.!!  <G>

Thanks also, for not setting a ridiculously low latency cap on your
host..

You are correct in regards to the graphical information from the host
is not transmitted to the client and vice versa, but what people don't
take into account is that when a CPU is being pushed to it's limits, as
in not being able to maintain Maximum FPS rate, then that allows less
time and resources for the CPU to dedicate to the connection protocols,
eg: serial port USB port etc..
If the CPU is not being pushed to it's limits, then the CPU can
dedicate the full resource requirments that is required of it, to give
total dedication to the communications protocols, which will allow for
better on-line connections.
The quality that the graphics can be sensibly set at on either a client
or a host, (for on-line play)  relies totally on the capacity of the
CPU/Video etc. to maintain a maximum frame rate count...

Cheers,
Ron

ps..  host a road circuit occasionally,  they are good fun.  :)

I agree.
Racer X
Veteran Sim Racer
Victory Lane-
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

I'm puzzled -- at 150 mph a car travels about 220 feet/second.

Latency is the amount that the different systems (in a race) are out of
"perfect time sync", yes?  If so, 350 ms equals about 77 feet (~25 meters),
at a simulated car speed of 150 mph.  77 feet is about 4 car lengths.

Surely this makes it difficult to have "nose to tail" racing as was
mentioned in an earlier post??  What am I missing??

Obviously if a driver i was following closely at 200+mph at Taladega
hit the brakes unexpectantly, then no doubt at all, i would wear his
rear end as a hood decoration, but i can guarantee you a client with a
ping of .050ms  would do exactly the same, and have the same hood
decoration.
Door handle to door handle racing was the same, with no ill effects or
latency induced crashes at all...
If some of the guys i have raced against in N3 on-line, see these
posts, i am sure they will verify what i have just posted here..

Connection quality, is very important.!!!

A lot of it, just boils down to how sensible and caring a driver is..
Some of the drivers i have seen in N3 on-line, would not have the
ability to keep a pram on a footpath at 1 mph, let alone a car on a
track at 200 mph.   <G>
Cheers,
Ron