rec.autos.simulators

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

Schoone

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Schoone » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:12:27

Exactly.  For some if there was a view that showed a brick wall with 2 eyes
holes in it they would use it if it was called "cockpit". :-)



> >I dont think any other view other than***pit view should have ever been
> >included in any version of papyrus simulations, make the driver drive
from
> >the driving position. The fact that people don't use the***pit view is
a
> >pretty clear indication of some type of advantage regardless if it is
> >performance, car control or just the field of view that lets them see
more
> >of the tracks surroundings like wreckers that would normally be
obstructed
> >by the a pillar unless you are using the look left or right button which
is
> >scary enough at speed. Just my 2 cent worth.

> >Flame away ya arcade drivers! :)

> First, we can all agree that a scene displayed on a computer monitor
> is not as realistic as the view would be if one were actually there -
>***pit, roof, or bumper.

> So why do***pit riders bash people who are trying to overcome the
> limitations of driving through a 2D screen?  It's certainly not about
> realism - do real drivers look at a flat screen?  Do real drivers have
> the F2 real-time intervals?  Surely every***pit-riding arcade basher
> turns that off, right?  Surely you NEVER look at tire temperatures or
> wear while you're on the track?  Do you turn up the heat to over a
> hundred degrees every time you race?  No, this is not about realism.

> Using non-cockpit view is more about overcoming the non-realistic
> DIS-advantages of a computer simulation than trying to get an edge.
> Why make it harder to drive these simulated cars than it really is?
> What perverse pleasure do some of you people get from needlessly
> handicapping yourselves?

> Personally I could care less what view a person drives from, but it's
> just sad to see some people (not necessarily yourself Tom, just
> speaking generally here) use it as an excuse to feel superior and bash
> others in the name of 'realism'.

J.D. Elli

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by J.D. Elli » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:04:17


>    Sorry it took me 3 years to think of this.

Enough Walter Mitty rhetoric, Dave.  Go back to focusing on your
Corvette-envy. :)

-jde

JM

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by JM » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:26:36




>>However, for me, roof-riding makes road-racing a bit easier.  It
>>doesn't make me a winner, but it lets me run in the top five
>>(usually).  Other than that, I get no advantage by roof-riding over
>>cockpit view.

> But, you just admitted it does give you an advantage. I don't care
> what people use, but I like the***pit view because I want to feel
> like I'm in a real car and not playing an arcade game.

What was that phrase, "You can never prove a negative."
I'm with John on this, just so we're clear.

In Nascar Racing Season 2002, the interior view is restrictive to the
point of being a disadvantage.  Countering that disadvantage to some
degree by using the Roof cam (as opposed to the CHASE CAM which some
posters are still having difficulty identifying correctly), is, according
to logic, using an advantage.  In the same way that it's an advantage to
box using both fists, when your opponent chooses to tie one hand behind
his back.

I have personally sat in several competition saloon cars of different
formulae, as well as numerous road cars, and have driven a formula ford
wearing full helmet, so I don't speak solely from the armchair.

NR2002's***pit view is unecessarily cluttered with interior
"furniture".   In real life, while such obstacles (roll cages, door
pillars, dashboards) do sit in the field of view, it's much easier to
disregard them, than it is when they take up something like 60% of the
real estate on a computer monitor.

Tom Pabst has apparently re-coded the roof camera (not the CHASE CAMERA)
to be sat on/near the dashboard, with an altered field of view.  It's
potentially an improvement, although I couldn't personally get it to
work.  If the***pit camera came at least with an adjustable zoom/focus,
and field of view it would be ok- at least then I could alter it until it  
seems realistic.

The alternative, currently, is to use the "roof" cam, which gives you a
view of the hood, and a decent view of the road ahead, obscured at the
sides only by the "virtual door pillars" of the computer monitor screen
sides.

I have no problem with people using hood-cams or "roof"cams, therefore.

For the record, I've raced in a full contact NR2002 league, which uses
forced***pit view. not a problem.  I use***pit view in a GPL PRO race
league, and***pit view in a Nascar Heat Mod league.  Cockpit view is
not a problem to me, but if I had the option, I would run the NR2002
races using the roof/hood cam.  Purely because there is a specific
problem with the interior of winston cup cars in computer sims.

cheers
John

John DiFoo

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by John DiFoo » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:30:03



> >I dont think any other view other than***pit view should have ever been
> >included in any version of papyrus simulations, make the driver drive from
> >the driving position. The fact that people don't use the***pit view is a
> >pretty clear indication of some type of advantage regardless if it is
> >performance, car control or just the field of view that lets them see more
> >of the tracks surroundings like wreckers that would normally be obstructed
> >by the a pillar unless you are using the look left or right button which is
> >scary enough at speed. Just my 2 cent worth.

> >Flame away ya arcade drivers! :)

> First, we can all agree that a scene displayed on a computer monitor
> is not as realistic as the view would be if one were actually there -
>***pit, roof, or bumper.

> So why do***pit riders bash people who are trying to overcome the
> limitations of driving through a 2D screen?  It's certainly not about
> realism - do real drivers look at a flat screen?  Do real drivers have
> the F2 real-time intervals?  Surely every***pit-riding arcade basher
> turns that off, right?  Surely you NEVER look at tire temperatures or
> wear while you're on the track?  Do you turn up the heat to over a
> hundred degrees every time you race?  No, this is not about realism.

> Using non-cockpit view is more about overcoming the non-realistic
> DIS-advantages of a computer simulation than trying to get an edge.
> Why make it harder to drive these simulated cars than it really is?
> What perverse pleasure do some of you people get from needlessly
> handicapping yourselves?

> Personally I could care less what view a person drives from, but it's
> just sad to see some people (not necessarily yourself Tom, just
> speaking generally here) use it as an excuse to feel superior and bash
> others in the name of 'realism'.

    Thank you. :-)  Now that this is on record, hopefully we won't
see any more straw men assumptions on this topic...

    John DiFool

--
==============================
And, as the city glows
Electric people nobody knows
==============================

Dave Henri

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Dave Henri » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:08:23



> >    Sorry it took me 3 years to think of this.

> Enough Walter Mitty rhetoric, Dave.  Go back to focusing on your
> Corvette-envy. :)

> -jde

  Envy?  Funny you should mention that....this is an email thread from the
F1 200x mod group.  don't worry, I changed the name of the poster so NOBODY
would recognize VonRott's name.

--------------
dont you dare change the C5R !!! it's PERFECT just the way it is Steven.. :)
RonVott

and here was my reply:
  "  Well there ARE just one or two niggling problems with the See Five Are.
One: it's yellow.  Two:  It's a Chevrolet.   Other than that...PERFECT!"

envy?  hahaha
dave henrie

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02

Wayne Bradle

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Wayne Bradle » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:31:17

If that's the way they do it in real life then yeah.  That is the entire
point of simulating.

They are not asking to eliminate roof view,  It was simply a request to have
an option of enforcing a certain view.  If the person running the server
wants to force it let him, there are plenty of other places to race.


> Exactly.  For some if there was a view that showed a brick wall with 2
eyes
> holes in it they would use it if it was called "cockpit". :-)




> > >I dont think any other view other than***pit view should have ever
been
> > >included in any version of papyrus simulations, make the driver drive
> from
> > >the driving position. The fact that people don't use the***pit view
is
> a
> > >pretty clear indication of some type of advantage regardless if it is
> > >performance, car control or just the field of view that lets them see
> more
> > >of the tracks surroundings like wreckers that would normally be
> obstructed
> > >by the a pillar unless you are using the look left or right button
which
> is
> > >scary enough at speed. Just my 2 cent worth.

> > >Flame away ya arcade drivers! :)

> > First, we can all agree that a scene displayed on a computer monitor
> > is not as realistic as the view would be if one were actually there -
> >***pit, roof, or bumper.

> > So why do***pit riders bash people who are trying to overcome the
> > limitations of driving through a 2D screen?  It's certainly not about
> > realism - do real drivers look at a flat screen?  Do real drivers have
> > the F2 real-time intervals?  Surely every***pit-riding arcade basher
> > turns that off, right?  Surely you NEVER look at tire temperatures or
> > wear while you're on the track?  Do you turn up the heat to over a
> > hundred degrees every time you race?  No, this is not about realism.

> > Using non-cockpit view is more about overcoming the non-realistic
> > DIS-advantages of a computer simulation than trying to get an edge.
> > Why make it harder to drive these simulated cars than it really is?
> > What perverse pleasure do some of you people get from needlessly
> > handicapping yourselves?

> > Personally I could care less what view a person drives from, but it's
> > just sad to see some people (not necessarily yourself Tom, just
> > speaking generally here) use it as an excuse to feel superior and bash
> > others in the name of 'realism'.

Schoone

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Schoone » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:49:16

Yes and I said I agreed with people not cheating when a view is enforced.
my point was that the current***pit view is not as realistic as people
think and get caught up in it more by name alone.


> If that's the way they do it in real life then yeah.  That is the entire
> point of simulating.

> They are not asking to eliminate roof view,  It was simply a request to
have
> an option of enforcing a certain view.  If the person running the server
> wants to force it let him, there are plenty of other places to race.



> > Exactly.  For some if there was a view that showed a brick wall with 2
> eyes
> > holes in it they would use it if it was called "cockpit". :-)




> > > >I dont think any other view other than***pit view should have ever
> been
> > > >included in any version of papyrus simulations, make the driver drive
> > from
> > > >the driving position. The fact that people don't use the***pit view
> is
> > a
> > > >pretty clear indication of some type of advantage regardless if it is
> > > >performance, car control or just the field of view that lets them see
> > more
> > > >of the tracks surroundings like wreckers that would normally be
> > obstructed
> > > >by the a pillar unless you are using the look left or right button
> which
> > is
> > > >scary enough at speed. Just my 2 cent worth.

> > > >Flame away ya arcade drivers! :)

> > > First, we can all agree that a scene displayed on a computer monitor
> > > is not as realistic as the view would be if one were actually there -
> > >***pit, roof, or bumper.

> > > So why do***pit riders bash people who are trying to overcome the
> > > limitations of driving through a 2D screen?  It's certainly not about
> > > realism - do real drivers look at a flat screen?  Do real drivers have
> > > the F2 real-time intervals?  Surely every***pit-riding arcade basher
> > > turns that off, right?  Surely you NEVER look at tire temperatures or
> > > wear while you're on the track?  Do you turn up the heat to over a
> > > hundred degrees every time you race?  No, this is not about realism.

> > > Using non-cockpit view is more about overcoming the non-realistic
> > > DIS-advantages of a computer simulation than trying to get an edge.
> > > Why make it harder to drive these simulated cars than it really is?
> > > What perverse pleasure do some of you people get from needlessly
> > > handicapping yourselves?

> > > Personally I could care less what view a person drives from, but it's
> > > just sad to see some people (not necessarily yourself Tom, just
> > > speaking generally here) use it as an excuse to feel superior and bash
> > > others in the name of 'realism'.

Tom Osbo

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Tom Osbo » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:56:54

I have made no modifications to the sim, it is run just the way it was
packaged,unless you want to call a papy patch a mod.



> > I dont think any other view other than***pit view should have ever
been
> > included in any version of papyrus simulations, make the driver drive
from
> > the driving position. The fact that people don't use the***pit view is
a
> > pretty clear indication of some type of advantage regardless if it is
> > performance, car control or just the field of view that lets them see
more
> > of the tracks surroundings like wreckers that would normally be
obstructed
> > by the a pillar unless you are using the look left or right button which
> is
> > scary enough at speed. Just my 2 cent worth.

> > Flame away ya arcade drivers! :)

> Didnt you spend a great deal of time modifying the view from the***pit
to
> suit your purposes?

> Doug

Nick

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Nick » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:38:54


Just thought I'd clear this up. N2002 is not a racing *simulator*. It is a
racing *emulator*. It is transplanting the idea of racing from real cars and
tracks and putting it onto a computer, which has absolutely no relation to a
real car or track whatsoever. Also, AI in computer games shouldn't be called
*artificial* intelligence, it should be called *apparent* intelligence. You
couldn't take the AI out of N2002, tell it the rules of chess and expect it
to begin playing (however badly). If it were a true rule based, learning
artificial intelligence then this is entirely possible, it could specialise
in a number of tasks if it knows the 'rules'. Unfortunately, a 5% frame
budget doesn't lend itself to proper artificial intelligence, so we have to
make do with highly specific apparent intelligence which doesn't use the
same rules of physics that human drivers have to use in the game.

Joachim Trens

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:27:02

Hi Pez,

what exactly are you referring to with 'braking and acceling thing'? I've
seen you make a similar comment before and wonder what exactly you mean.

Thanks in advance

Achim

Ps.: You roof-ride? Tsk tsk ;-)



Joachim Trens

Ending the Roof driving Question--A challenge to RAS

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:06:07


...

Well, that's probably pretty much the advantage the***pit riders think it
gives you :-)

Achim


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