rec.autos.simulators

You boot your woman in the teeth? That's cruel...

--
-Ace-
GPLRank -24.33
(MONSTERS of GPL +30.81)

**remove BRAIN before replying**

Favorite sim?
How big is your monitor?
How many colors?
What resolution?
How far from your eyes?
How much above or below eye level is the center of your screen?
Do you have normal vision/depth perception?
Have you ever driven a real car?
One above 300HP?
Above 500HP?
Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand?
Any real racing experience?
Do you know the difference between "on" and "over"?
Do you know what I mean when a ask if you can drive the car "level" all the way around?

If Papy makes another open wheel I'm just going to quit. They've got it all wrong and N4
is worse than GPL. Fortunately, I could care less about circle racing, but I've had it
with the papy openwheeler and it's domination on the net. Obviously, it dominates because
their online coding rules, but I'd really like to drive a real sim against my friends.
When I say real sim, I do not only mean that the physics are accurate, (which GPL is
marginal) but that the drivers perception of what's happening in the physics engine is
accurate also. Great physics can be had with a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper, but
when we are talking about a game/sim it's pretty darned important (to me, anyway) that it
feel like driving a race car and that I am capable of driving it with some anticipation -
that I can know what the car is going to do. I'd also like the consequences of actions to
be realistic. The easiest way for me to judge that, is to rely on what I know in real
life, so, that's probably how I describe a "sim". Can real life techniques and instincts
be utilized and relied upon to lap in a certain game? If the answer is yes, it's a sim in
my book. Also, if I can watch one of the real guys do it and use his techniques to the
same advantages, then it's a sim. (Track accuracy comes into play here.) The more
techniques I can swipe from Clark/Schumacher and use effectively in a given lap, the more
pure the sim. When I say copy techniques, I don't just mean making the car perform certain
balancing acts, I am also referring to the mental approach, strategy, visual cues, audio
cues, (Obviously there are no gravity cues.) and emotional output/expressive
performance/intuitive freedom. So far, haven't met a pure sim. But I know what stands out
in my head as miles above the rest.

I've had to learn a whole new set of rules to drive the Papy product yet almost all other
games have come naturally. What does that mean?

I haven't tried that patch for CS, but without it there is nothing, NOTHING realistic
about driving the thing... that must be some patch.
--

Mark Jeangerard

Administrator
GPVL F2 Division
http://home.att.net/~m.jeangerard/GPVLF2

I wouldn't say that... to me some are not rewarding enough to bother with
for any length of time.

GPL... if I were just running off-line, I might migrate to N4, but I'm still
having too much fun running against you (among others).

14"

I run most games in 16-bit colour.

800x600

about 65cm at an angle of about 15 degrees left in the horizontal plane.

3 to 5 cm, slightly tilted back.

Think so... I can hit a man sized target at 250m 10 out of 10 with an M16 of
that's a reference.

Been driving for 13 years.

Yes, at about 6/10ths

No.

Yes. That is to say I can provoke it, whether I can stay on top of it is
another matter. I tend not to push my luck unless I really have to.

Yes, but nothing relevant to available simracing games. Besides, I didn't
know jack back in those days.

Yup, even know "lost it" ;-)

Not familiar with the expression, sorry.

Pretty radical Mark, but I understand your frustration. If I could teach you
to "feel" GPL, I would, believe me. Just like you would (I hope) teach me to
"feel" GP3 (much better thanks to your suggestions though, thank you).

It means you pick up on different things. Obviously the guys at Papyrus will
code what makes them tick. If one experiences simracing games like they do,
great. If one doesn't: tough shit. Nothing we can do about that. Perhaps the
West brothers will strike a happier compromise.

With you here... haven't tried it either (sorry John).

Indulge me in return...

Still driving non-FF? -and 85/45 setups?

Don't know if I asked you before (I forget... ), but have you tried
MBTR? -Feels GP3-esque to me, with the crucial difference of it looking good
when using a 3D card. (me ---> ducks for cover ;-))

Jan.
=---

Interesting. Sometimes I feel as if I can't get back far enough. I see far too little. How
is your sense of speed in GPL?

Wow! Why?

Yes, but have you ever driven on the Nordschleife?  <WEG>

Therein may lie part of the problem. I wonder how many slide a car a good deal of the
time. When you become comfortable with it, you are not pushing your luck but rather,
driving normally. So how does someone who's never driven a car at the limit expect a
computer game to handle? How do the game makers approach that? I spend a lot of time
sliding and never think about it getting away on me because a car can be pitched without
going over and I can tell the degree of looseness I've involved myself in. There is much
range inside a slide that can be manipulated. (BTW Can I borrow your car in September?)
GPL misses that entirely.

I used to take that point of view but can't agree now. I've had too much time in GPL to
not see the problems. Accelerate to 42 mph going around the big left into the hairpin at
Rouen. hold the car steady at 45 until you hit the tires. Do the same thing again at 36
mph. Now watch the replays with the sound off and a piece of paper over the gauges. Can
you tell the difference in speed? I know it's only 6 mph, but at that point on that track
it's crucial. Or go look at one of those Real Ring vs. GPL Ring web pages. The perspective
problem is more than obvious. What about the latency issue? How are you supposed to drive
with anticipation when it's only after you've spun that you realize you've acquired
wheelspin. Why does a GPL car that's not sliding feels like it is sliding. I don't even
want to get into the sliding characteristics. Think about it, you're only ever quick in
GPL once you have accumulated many laps at a particular track. You have to learn all the
quirks, every time out. In a real sim, you can jump right in, and know what the thing is
going to do. Provided you can get a good read. And Papy's view is the worst of the worst,
so you never get a good read. Personally, my vision keeps getting drawn back into the
foreground. I can't say they did anything right on our end of the code.

Yes. I want to try an FF wheel but am waiting for the 20 dollar version. I'm not impressed
with F355 Challenge so naturally don't expect a 30 dollar game to make me believe it.
85/45, 85/30, 60/60, 60/45, 60/30. At this point my Milano setup is 30/85 with 6 clutches.

Only the demo and I loved it. I don't know if I'd compare it to GP3, it lacks depth and
realism. But I can drive it with anticipation. It reminds me of NICE, the physics are a
little kooky, but the game makers did a great job of making the interface broadcast those
properties to the driver. We know what the game is doing, is going to do, and the
instinctual response usually produces the expected result. I wish all games/sims had that
quality. I gotta get my hands on a copy of STCC 2 also. EB never heard of it.

--

Mark Jeangerard

| > > Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand?
| Therein may lie part of the problem. I wonder how many slide a car a good
deal of the
| time. When you become comfortable with it, you are not pushing your luck
but rather,
| driving normally. So how does someone who's never driven a car at the
limit expect a
| computer game to handle? How do the game makers approach that? I spend a
lot of time
| sliding and never think about it getting away on me because a car can be
pitched without
| going over and I can tell the degree of looseness I've involved myself in.
There is much
| range inside a slide that can be manipulated. (BTW Can I borrow your car
in September?)
| GPL misses that entirely.

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Not as good as in real life, but as good as in any game.

'cos I have a small desk and that's the way it was set up when I started
out. I've already experimented with it dead ahead, but after about 30 mins
of getting used to, it feels just the same. I've found one's either
immersed or one isn't. So, I put it back in order to be able to type in a
more relaxed manner. Interestingly though, when using a joystick in SBK2001
or a flight game I need it centered and normal to the monitor to make it
feel "natural".

I have actually. <VWG>

I think there is a slight difference in traffic density in our habitats...
some days there isn't even the opportunity to break the speed limit let
alone safely find the limit of the car 'round here. There's also a big
difference between an 87hp, 1250kg, front wheel drive family car and a race
car. I think I have a pretty good idea of where the limit is for my car
(finally, took much longer to suss out than my previous one) and I'm pretty
confident I can take it there (would be a PITA with the clumsy controls it
has though). I might take it to a track day at Zolder once the power
steering is fixed and find out.

Yup, I agree. If you'd never slid/drifted in real life, GPL would keep you
from attempting it. It's not without it's faults, but keep in mind in real
life you can actually gauge how "***ly" you've just chucked it because
you're subjected to all the accellerations. In GPL there's only the FF,
which is good, but needs nearly concious interpretation. A sort of "you
realise
you felt it after it happened" sort of deal, building experience as you have
more spins/offs.

You'd be much better off renting a BMW 318 Compact or something (then again:
how tall are you?), believe me. Mine's an A to B thing, no consensus to
actually enjoying the driving is made. Besides, I'm not going to let you
attempt Masta flat in *my* car. ;-)

Hardly, there is a bit of a giveaway in this situation as at 36mph the logos
on the tyres are noticably less blurred. On the other hand there are a
number of corners in GPL (where's there's no clear brake marker) where I
just brake early and trust to my sense of speed to modulate such as to
arrive at the turn-in point at the right speed. Works quite well for me.

Keep in mind that what we see of the real track are pictures and the view in
GPL is supposed to emulate your field of vision. Having driven the real
track I can attest the way the it presents itself to the driver is very
similar (be it from a slightly different viewpoint, obviously), similar
enough for me to know *exactly* where I was at all times.

In my exoperience it's not any worse in the anticipation department than any
other game except N4.

I'm getting better at it, getting up to my usual level in 20 laps at most.
Then again, my level is a lot further from the absolute limit than yours.

I find myself constantly switching back and forth to double check if my
actions have had the correct result in all games to some degree and GPL
isn't the worst of the bunch for me (that honour would befall GP3).

It makes a world of difference. Relieves your eyes to a certain extend.
Can't even imagine what GPL would be like without now. I've yet to try this
F355 challenge, mostly because that game is about a budget copy of GPL a go
over here.

Silly question, forget I asked it. With an 85/45 I still feel the car just
fine... just drives a little weird.

Yeah, setup options and damage (and the weather) are a bit on the "game"
side, but otherwise...

Exactly, but how come I get all that in this one too, while in our Canade
TopGear race (GP3) I power understeered straight off the track without
noticing before it was too late? -This stuff is getting weirder by the
minute.

If the place where I got it has some more I'd be glad to get you a copy. Say
the word.

Jan.
=---

fwiw I can give you the long list of exactly what you can and can't do in a car to get
thrown in jail in the USA. The *in jail* end of it is pretty short. You must live in
California, where it's illegal to call your mother on mother's day. :-)

--

Mark Jeangerard

Administrator
GPVL F2 Division
http://home.att.net/~m.jeangerard/GPVLF2

I'm starting to get the feeling that computer screens don't cater well to different
occular dispossitions. I get no sense of speed whatsoever.

How's this for funny. I can't sit straight on for SBK2001. (Another 300 laps or so and
I'll be ready to race online. Using a Dual Strike and just starting to get natural.)

Where's that MPG?

I find race cars infinitely easier to drive than road cars.

That is my primary point. In other games you can tell how ***ly you've chucked it. I'm
not sure how they've managed to transmit this in the others but GPL is way down the road.
I suspect the perspective and sense of speed bits. I suspect the dynamic***pit is the #1
contributer to those problems. But you've heard all about that.  :-)

Just kidding. :-) 5'10" and we have a car. If the car is substandard I'll get something a
little more substantial for the Nordschleife.

It's not really a matter of where I am on the track as it is how I look at the track at
speed. Strictly perspective and strictly Kaemmer. SBK is a good example of realistic
perspective. I wish I could put a GPL car on those tracks.

Once again, the old eyeball comes into play. I wonder how the game makers who everyone
likes do it.

Weird. I read GP3 almost perfectly. Games will get better, but GP3 is very satisfying to
me.

I was referring to the depth of the tires. I find GP3 to be the best at comunicating what
the tires are doing. They have more color than any other sim. If you know what I mean. GP3
is the one that closed the door on GPL for me. From here on out we are going to see some
really nice driving games.

Because that's the way big pushes are at speed. <EG> In your road car it takes forever for
the tires to exceed there limit once they start. With the high tech compounds it gets away
so fast that some days you wonder if you should be doing this at all.

WORD

--

Mark Jeangerard

| You can't just come in here and say
<snipp'ed'ed'ed>

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Very strange indeed, but it's got to be something like that. We're not
bullshitting eachother as to how we experience the games, so it must
something on the physical/optical level.

Always happy to serve as cannonfodder when you do ;-)

Miles Per Gallon??... surprising low, actually. On the trip (Belgian/German
border - 5 laps of the Nordschleife - Belgian/German border) we averaged
43mpg (that's UK gallon, BTW, don't know how many litres an US gallon is).

Got a sneaking suspicion that's not what you meant though... ;-)

so true... I can understand why many RL racers do hardly any "every day
driving" themselves.

Hehehee... have I ever!! ;-)

That's about my size, so the 318 Compact is just about an option. You'll be
a little cramped, but it's got good power to weight and RWD.

Do you use the rider view or the gas tank view? I use the rider view and
indeed find it easy to pick my line with... now if I could actually get the
bike to go where I'm looking I might get somewhere. ;-)

We could ask Milestone, but I doubt whether they'd take us seriously.

I know... frustratingly aware of it, in fact. ;-)

Not sure I understand... do you actually go by the graphical representation
of the tyres in GP3 when you say "color", or are you talking feel?

LOL.. very true, but you don't understand... not only did I not see the
understeer coming, I didn't notice it happening until the car hopped the
outside curb. I was fully expecting it to follow my intented line, but the
game failed to communicate (or I failed to understand) it was never going to
happen.

Consider it done. Bit swamped at the moment, but I'm sure I can swing bye
the store sometime next week.

Jan.
=---

That would explain how 40 people could sit in a room with GPL for 3 years and all agree
that it was good enough to sell. I still think the dynamic***pit stinks though. How did
you like the static***pit?

It'll be a crash fest for sure. I'm terribly slow when I'm steady. Are you using any helps
at all. I was running at the amateur level when I had extra brake power at 50% (the lowest
setting). Now that I turned it off (the last help I was using) I've gone right back to
rookie. And fighting to stay with them. I need bars and a throttle grip.

43 miles per gallon is unheard of here. Is that average? Or were you on a moped. You hear
stories of the big oil companies killing off carburetor designers and stuff. I wonder if
we average the same monthly gas bill, you know, price difference and what not.

RWD is the only legitimate auto design. Or as Derek Bell once said, "As god intended." I
just hope I'm ready for a BMW. I sold my last 2002tii in 84 or something because I was
sick of the BMW yaw. Drove a few since then and have had no change of heart. A 911 might
be fairly pricey... I know this sounds vulgar but, do you see many Chevrolet Camaros in
the rental lots over there? I know they are heavy and tail happy but I have a lot of
experience. I can do some serious damage with a Z28 or IROC.

I'm using F6. F5 (what you are calling gas tank view?) is too low for me and I can't see
far enough ahead. I like F7 once in a while just for the rush of the curb going by but I
can't aim the thing worth a ***in F7. I'm having a hard time with the slow corners but
found a rake/trail setting yesterday that's helping a lot. The chicken at Sugo is a ***.

Who?

You should be happy, my new video card is kicking my ass in GP3. Can't get it to function
right. :-(

I don't look at the front tires much. I'm aware of them I'm sure, but couldn't tell you
what they are doing graphically. The first thing I noticed in GP3 was that I could feel
when the car went from mechanical to aero. When it's mechanical it feels very much like my
kart, agile but light over the road. The aero gives it a supernatural grip but also takes
away some of the liveliness of the car. It's less likely to slide in a warm and comforting
manner. The next thing I noticed was that I could feel when one or both of the front
wheels went light. Halleluiah! Been waiting for that in sim for a long time. I'm having a
little bit of a hard time feeling which of the rear wheels is light but can usually figure
it out by thinking about what has happened. I can feel the rears pushing when I accelerate
and can tell when they are starting to spin by their pushing less and I can tell to the
pound how much braking pressure I have on each of the fronts, and the rears as a single
entity. I can tell when the tires are under, on, and over at all times. I can make the car
rotate slightly in a drift, under braking, coasting, or power, or I can drive it sideways.
In GPL the only things I can feel are under, way over, and overheated. The overheated tire
doesn't actually act like a greasy tire, but after a while I can usually reason out that
it's hot. Also, the GPL tire "feels" like it's sliding when it is not. So I can't actually
tell the transition to 'over'. In GP3, when the car is sideways I can tell how much grip
is available and I can tell when it changes and when it's just about to go over or come
back. Very important! The lateral indications in GP3 are great. So you see what I mean
when I say "color". I meant depth of simulation. And when I say simulation I don't mean
the numbers of physics specifically but rather in the gamers sense, so physics, GUI,
psycho acoustic,... everything. If sims were stereos then GP2 is mono, GPL is mono A plus
phase incoherence B, and GP3 is 5.1. BTW, My sound levels are engine 70%, tires 80%,
specials 100%.

I do not "feel" any weight to the car but I do know what aspects of weighting the game is
projecting to me. And they seem very accurate to real life. I GPL I do feel weight, but
the signals are all wrong so I have to adjust my instincts to the particulars of the game.

Besides that, I can tell how fast I am going to within a few mph and I know *exactly*
where I am on the track. Two virtues that without, I can not call it a sim.

I'm not trying to say that GP3 is perfect and I really don't know, intimately, the
situation you are talking about but I've had those. I've had pushes where you see it
coming and wait it out and go on your merry way. I had the ones that you don't see coming
but it comes back into your hands while you're still on the black stuff  and you go on
your merry way. Then I've had the ones where you think you're on your merry way and next
thing you know you're flicking gravel out of your collar. The only way I can explain it is
that racing vehicles accumulate a lot of speed very quickly and racing tires have
unbelievable grip and if you lay into in a manner and place in which you shouldn't and/or
are unaware of what you are doing then the vehicle is likely to do something that may well
catch you by surprise when the tires finally give up. I have had that in GP3 and as far as
I can tell it seemed pretty real. I've also had the other two pushes and they were
recognizable too.

Gggggggggg.......... Thank you kindly sir. Name you price. (Or potion - seen the Randall
speed trucks for skateboards yet?)  :-)

--

Mark Jeangerard

Have to admit I haven't tried your latest, but in the past I have not been
able to get either your or Greg's creations to work. That said, I don't
really feel the need for improvement in this area.

On the whole things are a lot better in the rain for me... as if the changes
in grip are more clear, less drowned out than in dry conditions.

Jan.
=---

I still remember my first online race. Cotton mouth at the S/F. Twitchy thottle foot. CPR
was great. <EG>

GPL too....

But if you haven't tried it? How would you like to drive GPL with all the feel and
awareness that you have of the front end of a GP3 car? Not only that! But the rear end is
that good too. If GPL had a static***pit I'd say it was better than GP3. (As a driving
sim.) It seems like any well versed GPL guru could disconnect it. They just don't know
that they should. They should.

Oh yeah. I use that too. Mapped to my controller, completely unsuable.

Unfortunately, the helps, help. But then it's just too much, I don't know... you're still
using your skill at picking a line and stuff.... but you're not *riding* the bike.

Still... in the 4 cylinder I'm getting 20 mpg. The 6s and 8 are much worse.

I think I've driven one of those. It has all the features, and it's no Ford by any means.
(Ford being the one auto make that I won't even get in. No matter who's driving.) But it's
got that BMW feel. I like low and tight better.

Seat Leon - check. I think I know what you mean about the Porsches. I haven't driven any
newer models, but they look funny. The last great looking one was a 94 or 96 (can't
remember) in my opinion. The newest 911 I've driven is an 87. I've also driven late 70's
through that and a 912. If you get a used one, read up on the rear suspension because I
can tell you right now - A loose 911 is the scariest thing you will ever drive. (Besides a
Ford that is.) The 87 was much better than the 79, but you'd better have lightning quick
reflexes when you get that thing pitched. I shit my pants the first time I got a 930
sideways and never actually got used to it. I hear they've got it fixed. If you've got
some dough, go get a Ferrari.

Oh you can, can you? :-) I don't like 'em. One day I had like 5 spins in my 94Z and that
was it. I'd had enough of the whole front engine thing. I wanted a mid or rear engine so
bad that I drove by a dealer, saw the 87 Fiero, drove it around 4 corners and told the guy
to write up the papers, he was getting a Camaro real cheap like. I traded straight across.
That's how fed up I was. Still love the Fiero. Great car. Wish I could afford a Ferrari.
But anyway, I bought Camaros because you can get a lot of ponies for not too much dough.
So, I'm used to them. Nothing more. :-)

So... the Suzuki handles good eh? Must test....

Oooh... those guys are goooood.

Yikes....

Without FF too?

I started taking the chicken really late, clipping both curbs, trailing throttle in,
neutral to the second curb, and easy throttle out. I don't know if it's quicker but I get
to the end more often. Plus, a late line helps avoid over shooting the infield and getting
that damned ten second flag. I also put more front bump dampers and springs. Seemed to
help. I think trail braking may help at the Ring as it influences rounder lines. Whenever
I get it in too hot I seem to get better times there. I'm really impressed with this
track. Very hard. Had a ferocious race with Ralf today. Probably 10 passes in 10 laps.

And those 116 guys can go rot.

That's interesting. Is it possibly the tire sound?

You know, I think EB has FF wheels. Let me look around.

I bet if one of us showed up at the others house we'd go, "Ohhhhhh, I seee.... the monitor
is facing north and the speakers are made of cheese." Or some such voodoo.

Musicians don't know that kind of thing. Hell, they don't even know what town they're in.

Ooooh. I know that one. I had that in GP2 and GPL. Went away in GPL, for the most part. I
absolutely relish the races in GP3. CPR too. (You may taunt me a second taahmma.)

Skateboard trucks that don't wobble. You can have them so loose that you can turn a 56
inch board around on a sidewalk by turning, not sliding, and still go 50 mph. That means
twisty mountain roads are more accessible than ever. Quite fun. Want a pair?

--
Mark

It was, poor FF kills the magic though.

My first race was with Greg at Kyalami... he kept having to wait for me.
Must have bored him to tears. ;-)

I had one previous attempt with F1RS... the TV style run-down of the grid
sent my heartrate over 160... then I disco'd ;-)

Eh... no. As, in comparison to normal GPL that would suck. <g>

Just kidding, I see what you mean. I'll give it a go whe n things cool down
over here.

They just don't want to make you any faster than you already are.

Haven't tried with helps on yet... it's a pride thing. <g>

I would consider that acceptable... just.

True... it's well spec'd. I really like the cruise control feature. Frees up
a lot of attention when motorway driving. Have you driven any of the
European Ford models? -Ok, they're transport, but they're not any worse than
the Nissan I drive (except being more expensive).

Haven't driven many Porsches... a 944, but that hardly counts, does it?

Dang... too obvious, he's not taking the bait. You know me too well Mark.
;-)

Smoothest by a margin, IMO.

Very talented bunch indeed.

I can't even remember what sims used to be like without FF. I'm definately
an FF-junkie.

Yes, it is a very nice track and thanks for the hints. Totally swamped by
work at the moment though and doubtfull whether I can submit anything at
all.

Eh?

I don't know... perhaps it's the lower threshold. I'd need more *time* to
figure this stuff out. Settings/driving/setup... too much to cram into a
couple hours per fortnight.

ok.

Greg and myself couldn't drive to save our lives on eachothers rig. He did
manage to teach me how to really do powered drifts though...

Just learned 5.1 is some sort of surround sound thingy. Or do I look even
dumber now?

Er... still not sure what they are, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able
to use them. So... thanks for the offer, but no. Relax and enjoy while I
think of something diabolical. ;-)

Jan.
=---

Stay away from RennerVision. You can't use it online and it will just***you off that
it's not normally like that.

Not sure about the 944. My sister had a 924 and it counted... as a Nissan.

The 116 guys are the same bunch who are doing 113s at Magny. They can still go rot.

Please explain how you do powered drifts.

Ding - Ding! 5.1 is a surround convention developed by Dolby Labs.

...and, just so you know, everybody can use a skateboard.

--

Mark Jeangerard