rec.autos.simulators

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

Larr

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Larr » Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:48:41

Oh, I'm sure that when pressed they will have a 'reason' :)

-Larry



> I was wondering about backlight replacement costs just recently. I was
> figuring it shouldn't cost any more than a hundred bucks to replace
> but now you have opened my eyes I am disgusted. The computer industry
> is run by thieves, IMO.

Larr

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Larr » Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:51:19

Ghosting isn't really a function/failure of the video card.  Again, refresh
rates are practically a non-subject with LCD's.

It's the _pixel response characteristics_ that cause ghosting on LCD's.

Analog connections can induce noise under some circumstances that certainly
will affect the performance of LCD's.  Most of the time they are fine
though.

-Larry


> On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 23:03:14 -0400, "Brian Bowles"

> >Thanks Karl I was the one that saw ghosting. I will have to go back and
see
> >if it was hooked up analogue. I bet you are right! Thanks!!!

> Analog or Digital won't make a difference to ghosting. Maybe they were
> running it on a dog slow video card. Digital just gives a purer signal
> and doesn't make much dif really. Another thing to consider is that
> when you view monitors in the store they are usually running them all
> off of one PC and have to split the video signal which causes major
> image degradation problems. I was viewing an NEC FE950 in the store
> once and it looked slightly blurred because of this reason, but I knew
> it was a good monitor so bought it anyway and it looked great running
> on my own PC.

Larr

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Larr » Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:54:26

It really isn't tied together that way.

Think of it like this....

Let's say  you light up a pixel on the right side of the display.  You
intend to walk that 'dot' across the screen by turning off that pixel, and
turning on the one to it's left.  Repeat 1024 times (for a 15" LCD).

Depending on the pixel response characteristics, the movement may 'blur'
because the pixels cannot turn on or off fast enough to prevent it.  When
the one on the right shuts off and the one to the left turns on, when the
one on the left comes on the right one is still partially visible due to
it's slow response time, and thus 'ghosting' occurs.

-Larry


Larr

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Larr » Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:57:52

Um, no :)

While _technically_ correct (kind of), the reality is that the pixel can
still be ASKED to change a lot more than that.  You don't really know what
frames will actually displayed, just that it won't be all of them.

You can't really tie frame rate to pixel response.

-Larry


Gerry Aitke

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Gerry Aitke » Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:06:21


> Sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Motion-Blur is bad enough
> with DVD's much less racing games on LCD's with poor pixel-response rates.

Well I wasn't talking about DVD's. But as far as racing sims go, <=50 is
good enough. My proview has proved this.

> -Larry





>>>>I HAVE used LCD's for *** and Pixel Response Rate most certainly IS a
>>>>consideration.

>>>Yes, it's a consideration. But all the decent LCD's out now are fast
>>>enough for *** and shouldn't be discounted because the response
>>>time is 20ms. Any LCD with <30ms is adequate.

>><50 is adequate.

ae

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by ae » Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:28:36

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:06:21 +0100, Gerry Aitken

But you said before "There is a slight motion blur in racing games".
That proves to me it isn't good enough.

Andrew.

Gerry Aitke

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Gerry Aitke » Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:52:11


> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:06:21 +0100, Gerry Aitken

>>Well I wasn't talking about DVD's. But as far as racing sims go, <=50 is
>>good enough. My proview has proved this.

> But you said before "There is a slight motion blur in racing games".
> That proves to me it isn't good enough.

> Andrew.

'Slight' as in 'slight', and only at the edge of the screen. With a CRT
you get strobing, that's track side objects going the wrong way!

To say that slight blurring 'proves' it's not good enough only proves to
me that you aren't bright enough!

ae

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by ae » Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:08:50



But LCD TV's cost a fortune compared to LCD monitors. I would expect
for that price that they have a fast reponse rate.

Andrew.

Jone Tytlandsvi

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Jone Tytlandsvi » Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:12:52


Social services may be free but they are certainly not of very high quality.
Hospitals are run by the state and are not efficient. People die while in
queue for simple surgery. Social services has to be outsourced to private
companies or this will never get better. Problem is most people don't
understand what the problem is. They think the state should run everything,
managers of large companies should earn about the same as a industrial
worker, and that is should be illegal to pay for heart surgery at a private
clinic because it would be unfair to the not so wealthy.
I guess you won't find a country where the "low" wages are higher than here,
and that's nice, but there might not be that much left after you have paid
all taxes.

Example:
You make 600.000. Your Employer has to pay 14,2% on your wage so what he
pays is 685.200. This is a high wage (progressive tax) and half of it will
be tax. You have 300.000. You use it all to buy a car. Now cars was sometime
defined as a luxury item that no one really needed so it was heavily taxed.
So half of you 300.000 goes to the state and the other half to the car
dealer. So your Employer paid you 685.200 and all you could buy was a
150.000 car. The state got 535.000. The state is you and me, (Ed, Goy and me
to be more specific) :) , but most of it got spilled away in the process of
providing us with social services, roads and stuff. This is problem in all
countries but I think it's quite bad over here. You have to compare the tax
level in a country to what you get back in services, not how much the state
are able to burn providing these services. I think Switzerland and maybe
Canada are good at this, but I'm not sure.

Another side effect of social services being free:
Your in Iran, your pregnant. The local hospital in Tehran doesn't have the
best reputation. To have the baby at a hospital cost nearly as much as a
plane ticket to Norway. A friend of your sister-in-law's sister has a friend
who's sister-in-law live in Norway. What do you do? You guessed it! You fly
to Norway on a 3 month tourist visa, and have the baby on an, after all,
quite decent Norwegian hospital. :)

--
Jone Tytlandsvik
http://tytlandsvik.no

Jone Tytlandsvi

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Jone Tytlandsvi » Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:35:55


I guess the "film" type I'm thinking of can't be used on coulor LCD's
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/woodyatt/parts/parts.htm

I also found this:

http://www.elotouch.com/products/crtlife.asp#lcd

"Cost of ownership considers maintenance costs over the life of the monitor
as well as the initial cost. While the acquisition cost of an LCD monitor
may be twice that of a CRT, the maintenance costs of an LCD monitor can be
considerably less and may result in a lower cost of ownership. The following
factors should be considered in the LCD/CRT selection:
LCD backlights last about twice as long as CRTs and cost less to replace.
LCDs backlights can be field replaced without the need for test equipment.
CRT replacement requires special test equipment and cannot be replaced in
the field. CRTs must be shipped to a repair depot resulting in increased
down time and higher shipping costs."

And this:

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=139035

--
Jone Tytlandsvik
http://tytlandsvik.no

Larr

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Larr » Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:26:17

I guess the answer is balance :)

Larry



> >That's really incredible...

> >But, I guess it also depends on what social services are provided.

> >-Larry

> The quality of social services in Norway is way above the U.S. So are
> their average wages. No, I'm not from Norway, but I know they are near
> the top for quality of social programs.

Larr

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Larr » Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:34:59

I can tell you from experience that LCD Backlights do NOT always last twice
as long as CRT's, and like I said they are the  2nd most common failure we
see, second only to Hard Drives.  Again, I have to have dozens repaired a
year.

And I have not seen a manufacturer in 10 years that would sell me a light
bulb.  The last one that I saw that on was an old (OLD) Apple Powerbook back
in, oh, 1994/5.  It's been whole-panels since then.

Out-Of-Warranty CRT's are rarely repaired these days unless it is something
simple or if it's a really expensive, specialty monitor.  Manufacturers
almost always drop-ship whole-unit replacements (typically refurbished)
under warranty.

Most Monitor repair shops are flat-rate and do whatever is necessary to fix
it for $75 to $150, unless they need CRT's or Flyback's.  These days, I do
suspect there are computer modules that also cannot be
component-level-repaired.

-Larry


Magnus Svensso

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Magnus Svensso » Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:29:54



>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:06:21 +0100, Gerry Aitken

>>Well I wasn't talking about DVD's. But as far as racing sims go, <=50 is
>>good enough. My proview has proved this.

>DVD's are fine too. I have a DVD player on my PC and they wouldn't be
>selling LCD TV's now if they were ***for DVD's.

I've seen them(LCD TVs), and they're not all that great for moving
pictures. Motion blurring and streaking is most definitely there.
Basically the same as LCD monitors.
Magnus Svensso

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Magnus Svensso » Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:08:18



Sure, but that makes the issue whether they are good enough for DVD:s
a matter of opinion, not if they sell them or not.

Stephen F

How are LCD Monitors for racing?

by Stephen F » Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:13:19


> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:12:52 +0200, "Jone Tytlandsvik"

> >Another side effect of social services being free:
> >Your in Iran, your pregnant. The local hospital in Tehran doesn't have
the
> >best reputation. To have the baby at a hospital cost nearly as much as a
> >plane ticket to Norway. A friend of your sister-in-law's sister has a
friend
> >who's sister-in-law live in Norway. What do you do? You guessed it! You
fly
> >to Norway on a 3 month tourist visa, and have the baby on an, after all,
> >quite decent Norwegian hospital. :)

> Yea, expatriate Brits used to fly back to the UK from Canada to get
> expensive dental work done because flying there was cheaper than
> having the dental work done here. I don't think that is the case
> anymore though as the UK has cut many social programs.

Oh, the irony of Brits flying back to the UK for cheap dental work....

Stephen

:-)


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