rec.autos.simulators

by **Tony Rickar** » Wed, 12 May 2004 18:22:17

Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit off
according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from nothing
to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller
settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously and
reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here.

However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the
car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked up
(surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked).

I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems to
carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000.

It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched between
all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years. N1,
2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar
lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR.

Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something.
Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the
feel rather than through graphics and sound engines?

The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially GTR
FF is becoming the norm.

Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know but I
prefer it to the Momo!)

Thanks
Tony

by **Jason Moy** » Wed, 12 May 2004 18:48:27

On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:22:17 GMT, "Tony Rickard"

>Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something.
>Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the
>feel rather than through graphics and sound engines?

Hm. I don't use force feedback and I find it as
exhilerating/rewarding to drive as n2003. Granted it's hard to get an
overly thorough impression from 2 cars and 1 track, but it feels
pretty damn good to me.

Jason

by **Remco Moe** » Wed, 12 May 2004 19:00:22

On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:22:17 GMT, "Tony Rickard"

>Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit off
>according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from nothing
>to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller
>settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously and
>reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here.

>However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the
>car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked up
>(surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked).

>I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems to
>carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000.

>It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched between
>all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years. N1,
>2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar
>lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR.

>Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something.
>Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the
>feel rather than through graphics and sound engines?

>The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially GTR
>FF is becoming the norm.

>Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know but I
>prefer it to the Momo!)

I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has
problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly
from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has
problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds
slower.

As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick
enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P)

Maybe you've the same problem?

Cheers!

Remco

by **Steve Smit** » Wed, 12 May 2004 19:48:27

Remco,

Controller lag has always been a prob w. ISI sims. For that matter, with
most sims but Papy's. (EA's NfS series, for example; or almost all
rally/street racing sims.) It's most annoying w. F1 sims, because the RW
cars are preternaturally responsive (some might say hypersensitive).

> On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:22:17 GMT, "Tony Rickard"

> >Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit
off
> >according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from
nothing
> >to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller
> >settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously
and
> >reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here.

> >However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the
> >car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked
up
> >(surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked).

> >I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems
to
> >carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000.

> >It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched
between
> >all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years.
N1,
> >2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar
> >lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR.

> >Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something.
> >Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide
the
> >feel rather than through graphics and sound engines?

> >The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially
GTR
> >FF is becoming the norm.

> >Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know
but I
> >prefer it to the Momo!)

> I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has
> problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly
> from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has
> problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds
> slower.

> As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick
> enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P)

> Maybe you've the same problem?

> Cheers!

> Remco

by **Tony Rickar** » Wed, 12 May 2004 20:09:31

> I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has
> problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly
> from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has
> problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds
> slower.

I'll try that test. Sounds about right though.

Yes and yes!

It seems that way. It is not that I don't want to like GTR. It should
represent the future for sims. Yet personally I just can't take to the feel
of any sim based on the EA core engine and no matter how good the graphics
sound and complexity of physics being modelled unless I can find a fix for
the controller feel on my PC I will mourn the demise of Papy even more :(

Cheers
Tony

by **Carl Ribbegaard** » Wed, 12 May 2004 21:13:46

Have a look at your 3d settings for your graphics card and make sure that it
doesn't render a lot of frames ahead. I guess you could try turning on
vertical sync? I kind of believe that it should do something like 0 frames
rendered ahead.
Just a longshot, but easy to try out anyway.
:)

> > I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has
> > problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly
> > from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has
> > problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds
> > slower.

> I'll try that test. Sounds about right though.

> > As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick
> > enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P)

> Yes and yes!

> > Maybe you've the same problem?

> It seems that way. It is not that I don't want to like GTR. It should
> represent the future for sims. Yet personally I just can't take to the
feel
> of any sim based on the EA core engine and no matter how good the graphics
> sound and complexity of physics being modelled unless I can find a fix for
> the controller feel on my PC I will mourn the demise of Papy even more :(

> Cheers
> Tony

by **Dave Henri** » Wed, 12 May 2004 21:25:03

>> I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has
>> problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly
>> from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has
>> problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds
>> slower.

> I'll try that test. Sounds about right though.

>> As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick
>> enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P)

> Yes and yes!

>> Maybe you've the same problem?

> It seems that way. It is not that I don't want to like GTR. It should
> represent the future for sims. Yet personally I just can't take to the
> feel of any sim based on the EA core engine and no matter how good the
> graphics sound and complexity of physics being modelled unless I can
> find a fix for the controller feel on my PC I will mourn the demise of
> Papy even more :(

> Cheers
> Tony

Unless you get that controller cured, you won't be enjoying any of
the ISI sims. I always had a world of similar troubles with my old TM
Pro Dig2.
Using dxtweek2 try doubling the range of the pedals. Keep the center
point in the center of the new range and test ingame. If the pedals are
still not moving til halfway, try adjusting the center value up or down
and retest. Keep playing with the center value until you get something
close to a smooth report ingame at the calibration screen.
dh

by **Tony Rickar** » Wed, 12 May 2004 23:07:52

> Unless you get that controller cured, you won't be enjoying any of
> the ISI sims. I always had a world of similar troubles with my old TM
> Pro Dig2.
> Using dxtweek2 try doubling the range of the pedals. Keep the center
> point in the center of the new range and test ingame. If the pedals are
> still not moving til halfway, try adjusting the center value up or down
> and retest. Keep playing with the center value until you get something
> close to a smooth report ingame at the calibration screen.

I have already dxtweak2'd it and the controller looks ok in GTR. It did cure
some of my problems with the throttle but not the perceieved lag nor poor
"feel" factor.

Cheers
Tony

by **Dave Henri** » Wed, 12 May 2004 23:14:35

I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the
controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here who have
complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least
with some hardware configurations.
I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure.
dh

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 13 May 2004 00:21:16

> I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the
> controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here who have
> complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least
> with some hardware configurations.
> I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure.

I think it is variable by PC & controller config. There are enough people on
here I would trust who find GTR control to be fine and others who seem to
have my problem.

This is one area along with multiplayer that only Papy seem to have
mastered. Controller calibration, multiple axes and variance of PCs and
controllers all seem to be work out of the box with Papy sims, without
needing to adjust a seemingly infinite number of parameters.

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Thu, 13 May 2004 04:07:02

> > I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the
> > controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here who
have
> > complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least
> > with some hardware configurations.
> > I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure.

> I think it is variable by PC & controller config. There are enough people
on
> here I would trust who find GTR control to be fine and others who seem to
> have my problem.

> This is one area along with multiplayer that only Papy seem to have
> mastered. Controller calibration, multiple axes and variance of PCs and
> controllers all seem to be work out of the box with Papy sims, without
> needing to adjust a seemingly infinite number of parameters.

Have you tweaked the center values for the relevant axes in your PLR file?
With my old LWF/CH setup, the center value needs to be at 1.0 for the pedal
axes to get full travel. I'd guess either 0.0 or 1.0 is what you'd need.
No lag here, fwiw. Non FF wheel through my SBAudigy's gameport w/98SE.

BTW; it seems odd that no one appears to have noticed the low-speed steering
lock override cutoff speed (used for increasing lock to get out of the pits)
in the GTR Press Demo is set at 50 m/s. That's 180kph! That papy-like
option came into being after F1C with NT, and is set at 20m/s in NT'04.
Haven't had the chance to try a lower number in GTR yet, but if it's
actually working then it's affecting the steering lock in a number of places
around Spa. It's in the Driving Aids stanza of the PLR file.

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 13 May 2004 04:52:36

I agree with Steve.

Axis [00, 00] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 X

Axis [00, 00] Sensitivity="0.35377"

Axis [00, 00] Center="0.50000" // 0.0=min, 0.5=center, 1.0=max (use to
correct centering or split-axis issues)

Axis [00, 01] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 Y

Axis [00, 01] Sensitivity="0.49528"

Axis [00, 01] Center="1.00000"

Axis [00, 02] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 Z

Axis [00, 02] Sensitivity="0.50000"

Axis [00, 02] Center="1.00000"

I had to change my plr file in F1C to these settings to get full throttle
and brake response for my Ferrari FF wheel. Int he GTR demo, they were
already set to these values. Try either .5 or 1.0 and see what happens.

Also, I remember I had to restart the game once before the settings took
effect. For some reason, they didn't work the first time I fired up the game
after making the changes.

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 13 May 2004 05:15:02

> > I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the
> > controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here who
have
> > complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least
> > with some hardware configurations.
> > I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure.

> I think it is variable by PC & controller config. There are enough people
on
> here I would trust who find GTR control to be fine and others who seem to
> have my problem.

> This is one area along with multiplayer that only Papy seem to have
> mastered. Controller calibration, multiple axes and variance of PCs and
> controllers all seem to be work out of the box with Papy sims, without
> needing to adjust a seemingly infinite number of parameters.

Not for me. About a third of the time, N2003 doesn't see my wheel when I
start the game.

Also, the BIG problem with N2003 is that whether you struggle or excel at a
particular track is often dependent on what kind of wheel/steering pot you
have. This was confirmed to me here at ras by someone (name might of been
Pat) who worked at Papyrus. He said he and others there would swap pots in
and out of their wheels depending on what track they were racing.

I know that my wheel seems much better suited to F1C/GTR than N2003. What I
have to do to with my wheel in N2003 to succeed in no way resembles the
wheel action I see from the real NASCAR drivers on television. They look
like they are on a Sunday drive in an old Cadillac in comparison. I'm almost
definitely going to use some steering assistance in N2003 from here on out.
It actually feels like a car instead of a piece of s**t when I do. :-o

If I were you, I'd go on Ebay and buy a ff wheel. I just bought a MS ff
wheel (with the red grips) for 60$ (including shipping) just in case my
Ferrari wheel goes bad someday. I really can't imagine driving these sims
without ff.

David G Fisher

by **Kendt Eklu** » Thu, 13 May 2004 05:40:13

> Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit off
> according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from nothing
> to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller
> settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously and
> reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here.

> However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the
> car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked up
> (surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked).

> I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems to
> carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000.

> It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched between
> all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years. N1,
> 2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar
> lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR.

> Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something.
> Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the
> feel rather than through graphics and sound engines?

> The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially GTR
> FF is becoming the norm.

> Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know but I
> prefer it to the Momo!)

> Thanks
> Tony

IIRC there was a tweak that helped some folks w/F1C/2K - Set "Moving
Steering Wheel=0" in the .PLR file. I don't know what it changes, but
the steering wheel on the screen still moved, but the control response
was better.
What framerate are you running? I also understand that the ISI engine
links the controller input/physics calcs to framerate, so if you
aren't keeping a reasonable FPS then overall responsiveness suffers.
I'm not seeing a lag w/my ActLabs FF, but then again I am dreadfully
slow ;). I have caught the tail stepping out a number of times, and
corrected with a very quick countersteer, so I don't think I'm
actually getting lag.
Maybe this is the reason so many people think you can't do
power-oversteer w/o spinning?

Kendt

by **Eldre** » Thu, 13 May 2004 10:54:17

Even if I had noticed it, it wouldn't have mattered. I have the 'speed
sensitive steering' set to zero in the options. I'm guessing that's the
relevant setting.

Eldred
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