rec.autos.simulators

To me, it's all rather sad.  They (TG, IRL, media, advertisers, teams
that compete there) continue to put on the facade of this still being the
greatest race in not only the US, but the entire world.  [aside: Hmmm, any
F1'rs going along with that?].  It is human nature to hold on to tradition,
long after anything remains but the memories.  F1'rs continue to act that way
about Monaco, when it is a (*opinion*) anachronism of a race that, history and
tradition aside, isn't much of a race today.  Anyway, at least there, they
still have the same top level drivers as in the other races.

Given IRL's and CART's relative media failings, compared to NASCAR and F1, it
would seem to be to their best interest to combine, get over their childish
attitudes, and save the Indy500 and their collective butts.  Then again, and
to be honest, I don't have the numbers.  Perhaps both are doing well enough
dollar-wise, to allow them to continue their selfish ways.

Having said all that, having the Ganassi team there did a few things:  It made
for the most interesting Indy, and IRL, race since the split.  It both showed
CART superiority while perhaps contradictorily helping to legitimize IRL.  It
brought renewed interest back to a potentially dying tradition.

And, as was apparent from interviews, these guys really do still hold Indy in
a special place in their heart.  So yeah, its turned into a second rate race,
but it is still, for now, first in the hearts of many.  But for how long?

Another thing is obvious (though still an opinion :-)), we in the US aren't
training drivers as well as the rest of the world.  Drivers with no oval
tradition come over from Europe, SA, everywhere and collectively kick our
butts.  To me, the answer isn't to come up with a "americans only" race
series, but to let the best compete and work harder at training "our" own (if
that is important).

The fact that you would question, that IRL is a second rate operation
show you don't know what you are talking about.

Wow.

--

That is because F3 and F3000 are clearly the minor leagues of
F1 racing and everyone involved will admit it. IRL will not admit
they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How
can they when they race in the premier openwheel american
race; the Indy 500?

What Tony George did to run the CART teams off is dispicable.

The reminds me of the Chicago Bears football operation in
some ways. The real owner of the Indy track is Tony Georges
mother. The real owner of the Chicago Bears is Michael
McCaskey's mother. Michael McCaskey was screwing
*EVERYTHING* up for so long that she finially had to fire
her own son. I am sort of hoping the same thing could happen
at Indy and George's mother would slap him around or
something :-)

--

My sentiments exactly.  I know it will never happen, but I'd like to see F1
drop the Monaco race (he says as he ducks for cover).  I don't even like
driving it in any of the sims . . . well maybe GPL a little, but there you
go.

Jerry Morelock

1) I enjoy both CART and IRL.  To me they are by far, DIFFERENT series.  I
don't even think of them in the same breath anymore.  One is an oval series and
one if road racing.

2) The problem with CART may be that the USA has never really embraced road
racing.  Oh, it has it's place, but I don't believe it can sustain a series.  I
believe that is why Formula One has had trouble establishing itself.

3) Each series has five or six TOPFLITE drivers, another five or six that can
win on a good day and the rest are rookies, has-beens and journeymen.  You will
find this in most series.

4) Tony George is not an Ogre.  Years ago he had the most prestigious event in
motor racing.  All he wanted was to have a vote in the way that racing did it's
business.  Yes, including a voice in the direction of american racing.  CART
let him join the board and then, in what may have been the worst decision they
could have made, they told George he wouldn't be allowed to vote.  George
continued to try and be allowed a say in how racing went.  CART, rather
pompously and arrogantly, IMHO, said no.  Tony George then said fine.  I will
do it all my way.  The rest is history.

6)  All in all I thought it was a terrific race!  Buddy Lazier making a
stirring run to the front.  Montoya, turning it up a notch whenever he needed
to.  But in the end, winning the race in the pits, where his team gained 9
seconds in the last two stops.

I enjoy all racing and just don't care if the two are split.  I just want see
good racing.

Mike

I don't think that the IRL is necessarily second-rate, it just isn't the
premier open-wheel series in the U.S.

You aren't seriously arguing that, in order to invalidate the IRL, that
Montoya and Vasser needed to lap the entire field?!? Good God, man, these
guys had never driven IRL cars until a couple of weeks ago! Imagine putting
the two best IRL drivers in a CART race at, say, Road America -- does anyone
honestly think they would have any chance of winning?

Keep in mind that Juan Montoya is 9th this year in CART and has not won a
race, and Jimmy Vasser is 2nd (and I don't think he has won yet either).
Sure, Juan was last year's champion (although he actually tied for 1st with
Dario Franchitti), but he also had Mo Nunn as his engineer. Nunn was also
the enginner for Zanardi, but has since formed his own CART team. No doubt
that Juan is something special, but he has a long way to go if he is going
to win the CART Championship this year.

I think Lazier is a good oval driver, and I think there are several other
good drivers in the IRL, even a few who are good on road courses, too. On
average though, there is a far greater overall skill level in CART. Let's
face it, washed up CART drivers go to the IRL (Unser), but the best of the
IRL have moved to CART or NASCAR (Brack, Stewart).

In the end though, it doesn't matter much. In order for open-wheel racing to
thrive in the U.S., there must be a reconciliation. Fortunately, there is
only one obstacle to that becoming a reality. Unfortunately, his name is
Tony George, and his ego won't let him do what is right.

Jim Getzen

The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical
reasons and IRL benifited from it. Just one question. Why by definition is
the Indy 500 still considered the premier open wheeled race? Is it just
because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? If this is the case you
might as well save the teams big bucks and run Formula Ford Chassis there.
If it is not the case, what has IRL really got that stands out head and
shoulders over all other series and shouts "This race is still the premier
open wheeled race"

Just a provocative thought <G>

The 500 was not dropped by CART. Tony George (the person apparently
in charge of the track) essentially kicked tCART out by starting a new
league.
For the first year, the IRL members were guarranteed at least 20 starting
spots regardless of how the CART teams qualified. CART told them to
stick it.

The first year the IRL used year old CART chassis. Then the "developed"
their own chassis and motors. The #1 mantra that IRL used was cheap
cheap cheap. They complained (rightly) that CART was just too expensive
for many teams to compete. Well DUH!!!

Yep... Certainly not because the IRL cars (essentially NASCAR openwheel
cars) are more advanced than CART or Formula 1 cars. And most certainly
not because the IRL drivers are better. IRL is filled mostly with washed out
CART & F1 drivers. The *ONLY* IRL driver that I ever really liked from the
start was Tony Steward. He used the IRL as a stepping stone to NASCAR.

IRL has absolutely nothing except that they can run the indy 500.

I personally (like many others) am totally insensed that Tony George
completely porked the #1 race in the world. At one time the Indy
cars were prototype cars directly competing with F1 for technical
superiority. Neither one was really more advanced. And at one time
the F1 cars were allowed to run the indy 500. I believe Lotus almost
won the race one year because their F1 car needed 2 or 3 fewer
fuel stops than everyone else...

Now F1 is completely superior to CART as CART too is worried
about  cost. Penske tried to make their own chassis and for the
most part were a disaster.

IRL is a kit car that *ANYONE* can buy and race. Wow...

--

Really CART is road racing??? Huh... Where is CART racing next weekend?
This is the traditional race after the 500... DUH... UM... It is the 1 mile
oval
at milwalkee... Do you even know what you are talking about??

Name 5 or 6 topflite drivers in the IRL. Greg Ray might be the best in
the IRL but he crapped out into the wall. IMHO it is because he couldn't
cut the mustard when it counted. After Montoya passed him on lap 27
the guy was lost.

DUH... It is because Montoya's CART team was doing the pitstops.
ANd as you saw that team blows away the IRL pit crews.

DUH again.

--

It isn't considered the premier open wheeled race in the _world_.  Just the
US.  Most of the rest of the world rates F1 races above any other open-wheeled
racing.  For them, they might say the Monaco GP is the premeir race.  And, as
I opined in another post, that's another potential relic of a bygone era.  
At least it has the same top drivers as before.  OTOH, at least the Indy500
has interesting racing (with drivers that are fairly evidently not nearly the
same caliber as CART nevermind F1).

(again, US).  Bingo.  Like real-estate, it's location, location, location.  
Well, really tradition, tradition, tradition.  It clearly has nothing to do
with the formula of car, nor the caliber of driver.  And as to quality or
technical nature of the track itself?  Clearly, it's the name, the date, the
tradition.  And its living off of that reputation, just like most has-beens.  
In this case however, it can return to a semblance of its former glory, if
conscientious heads prevail.

Okay, while on a fantasy wishlist, I'd add that F1 drivers be wooed over for
the race as they where in the 60's (and tought us some lessons then too).

This rule was a wedge put in place to encourage participation in the IRL
series, whose dates were chosen specifically to NOT conflict with CART's
existing schedule in 1996 in order to encourage CART participation in the
IRL during its first year of existence, when the engine and chassis rules
for the IRL were compatible with CART's 1996 engine and chassis formula.
CART teams boycotted the IRL races, and they also boycotted the 1996 Indy
500 by choosing to schedule the "US 500" on the same day as the Indy 500.
The "25 and 8" rule did create a hurdle, but all a CART team had to do to
secure themselves a guaranteed starting spot at Indy in 1996 was to either
enter the Walt Disney World race in January (when there was NOTHING at all
on the CART schedule), or the Phoenix race in March (again, when CART had a
clear schedule).  All you had to do was enter one race, turn one lap, then
park it, and you had a guaranteed starting spot at Indy, so even the "25 and
8" rule wasn't all that much of an impediment.

Thus proving that YOU don't know what you're talking about.

At one time I considered you a respectable poster here, but it's become
apparent that you really only deserve to be treated with "troll" status,
Greg.  Pity.

-- JB

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------

Gotta love those road courses at Michigan, Fontana, Homestead, Rio,
Milwaukee, Nazareth, Chicago, Gateway and Motegi.  Wait...isn't that
just as many ovals as the nine-race IRL series?  Oops.  Let's not let
anything inconvenient like FACTS get in our way, now shall we?

How about this:  One is a US ovals ONLY series, the other races a
diversity of challenging tracks on four continents.

Right.  I keep thinking about how unpopular road racing is every time
I go to my local CART race in Long Beach.  As I push through the
crowds of people to get to my seat, I think, "Wow.  These people
really aren't embracing road racing at all.".

Pity the poor F1 circus, too.  The US Grand Prix isn't until
September, and they don't have any reserved seats left.  Oh, what to
do, what to do...

Five or six topflight drivers in IRL?  NAME THEM.  Greg Ray is a real
talent, but who else is left?

CART:  Montoya, Vasser, Franchitti, Andretti, Papis, Brack (ha!), and
Tracy.  The late Greg Moore would have been listed among their number
as well.  Among the rookies, Tagliani and Servia show some real
promise.  Kanaan, da Matta, Carpentier, and Castroneves are all young
drivers with tremendous talent who continue to prove their
competitiveness with the established talent.  

In terms of depth of talent on the grid, there is NO comparison
between CART and IRL.

Give me a break.  He was offered a VOTING position on the board.  He
did not want a vote, he wanted control.  Control of what?  Several
things:

1) Rules.  His obsession with the stock block formula in defiance of
what the automakers (remember them?) and teams wanted.  If this was
such a great idea, why have only two manufacturers (and only one is
competitive) jumped on the IRL wagon?

2) Drivers.  He has made no bones about wanting more "Joneses" and
fewer names ending in vowels.  Why?  Because his race is in Indiana,
where they consider drivers born in Ohio to be "foreigners". j/k  He
wanted sprint car guys rather than road racers, which was another
factor.

3) Money.  He went into a joint venture with Disney to built a track
there, and has gone into other ventures to build tracks.  He wants his
series to race on his tracks.  CART owners were not going to clear
sucessful races off of their schedule to run the Mickyard.

You're right that he is not an ogre.  He is selfish, greedy and
foolish.  His decisions were bad for the sport, and bad for his track.
He diminished one of the great motorsports events in the world to
satisfy his own ego.  His stubborn refusal to recognize this and
settle the matter is as ludicrous as OJ protesting his innocence as he
searches the world's golf courses for the real killers.

The best racing was watching Greg Ray battle with Montoya in the early
laps.  Ray is a very skilled and intelligent driver, and that was some
of the best wheel-to-wheel racing that Indy has seen in quite some
time.  It is a shame that Ray went out of the race so early.  

Which is the biggest problem with the split.  We would have much
better racing if TG were willing to resolve this issue.

Yeah, it's all Greg Cisco's fault that the league split in the first place.