rec.autos.simulators

HAWAII DRIVERS,

This is the scenario....

WOW.  The Papyrus Network for  Nascar Racing Sim is open to all beta
testers?  I'm there man!  Ok, how does all this stuff work?  Thanks
for the help guys!!  Alright Tally, here I come.  Whooo, what a
rush!!!  Let's run another, and another, and another, and another, and
another... well you get the picture.   Bleh!! Enough of Tally already,
I HAAAAAATTTE that track.... now<G>   Alright fellas, let's race at
Bristol, Rockingham, Martinsville, Michigan, Charlotte,
Darlington....Phoenix<NOT>.   Oh my Gosh, I've run 300 races in one
week and my wife is gonna KILL me when the phone bill comes, yikes!!
And to top it all off there have been too many races where I've been
taken out by reckless drivers, oooops-i'm-sorry drivers, I'll-fix-you
drivers, and your-lucky-I-don't-know-where-you-live drivers<G>!!  I
have to run with a select few to ensure that Ill finish the race in
one piece, let alone win the darn thing.

The realization....

So now I only run with guys I know or drivers with a level 4 and up
ranking, and even some of those can cause problems.  But 60% of the
time these closed races are AWESOME, except for the bill<inside
joke<G>>.  And as a compromise I still race constantly because I know
a god run will soon come up.  Besides... I love u man,  oops<sorry
Bud>, I love this game<<sorry Stern>.  Papyrus has done something that
puts them at the forefront of all racing sim developers, shucks, all
software developers for that matter.  I can run against the best
drivers in the world, no matter where they live, go door to door with
them even if there's really 2000 miles between our real doors, bump a
guy in traffic without fear of being shot at!!  This is the only game
that has stayed on my hard-drive for more that 2 weeks.  I drive it
almost everyday and by no means is it easy.  It takes real brain power
to succeed in the garage, patience to learn all the tracks, methodical
planning to pass in traffic, supreme concentration and control to stay
in the low groove with a car on your outside, logistical thinking to
plan your pit strategy, quick reflexes to avoid carnage, and most
importantly an open mind to make friends and keep them after being
involved in a "mutual" incident.  My Mom always said, "forgive and
forget", of course Pop said something else after Mom went to bed<G>
but she was absolutely right.  I used to get UPSET over incidents, but
over time, you learn to accept them and forget them.  After all,
racing at over 190mph with no room to spare, you gotta expect it
sooner or later.

Then there are the bonehead moves, I don't believe there are bonehead
drivers, just the moves.  Everyone is not on the same level,
obviously, which is why the ranking system was implemented.  Bottom
line is race with drivers who are close to your level and be open to
constructive criticism<sp?, kinda late>.  Always try to improve your
setups<more on that from Bill and I later>, your line and your
consistency.  Always use your mirrors, I know they are not that good,
but they are all we've got and I use mine about every 2 or 3 seconds,
all it takes is a glance.  Remember, that you do not have to be loose
at the starts anymore, as setups will now reflect real wear and tear,
they can get tight or loose over the long-haul, depending on the setup
itself and your driving.  Always save a replay of a race where you got
smoked, you can only learn from the driver who obliterated the field,
hey, it has worked for me over the past 10 months!!  Anyway, now that
I've lost my place, let's get back to the real reason for this post<G>

The current plan....

As it stands now, the system will probably be setup for open and
pick-up racing when it finally comes out in the finished version.
What I mean is, when you log on it will be in a first come, first
served fashion.  You log on, look at all the races running, forming,
starting and finishing, find your niche and run with whoever happens
to join that fits the race criteria, if any.  You have a blast as the
new drivers are having now and you win, lose, wreck, agree, argue or
go on to the next.  This is cool, but doesn't last very long and will
get pretty old after awhile, from my experience.   I think there will
be racing going on at all times of the day in the future, even more so
than it is now.  And there will be absolutely no priority given to
leagues of any kind.  If you have a league formed that races twice a
week and is comprised of 25 members, it will be a pot luck to get your
guys on the system when it's time to race.  Maybe they'll make it and
maybe they won't.  And at the rate new drivers are coming aboard, they
probably will be races missed by league members, guaranteed!!! But hey
that's the current plan, and we all know about the best laid plans of
mice and men....

The consumers speak.....

Although I personally race in pick-up races from time to time, league
racing is the main reason for participating in on-line racing for me.
I currently am a member of the Pro-HCS series, which is the top league
on-line.  I think it will suffice to say that I live for that race
each week<outside of the real world of course<G>>!!  There is nothing
like it anywhere.  We have a board which reviews & governs all races
and also handles the admission of new drivers.  There are strict rules
which are enforced to ensure the integrity of the league and they work
very well.  I wish all of you had the opportunity too race in these
type of races as there are simply too good to be true.  The distance
is 35% and the races are run so clean that 2 yellows is all we usually
ever get, sometimes there are no yellows at all.  Pit strategy is a
must as are hellacious fast setups that last and last and last.   But
the most important thing is the driving.  I believe this starts with
the respect we have for each other.  The guys in the Pro-HCS are
friends and while there may be heated discussion over a topic, this
never changes.  It translates into trust out on the track, which means
door to door and bumper to bumper racing, three to 4 wide in the
corners, and lots of smiles all around when the racing is over.  Guys
accept that wrecks will happen and learn from it.  And most
importantly, bonehead moves happen maybe once every race, maybe.  As
of yet there have been no drivers taken clean out of a race because of
an incident, I think, pretty sure though<G>.  After a race I may look
at a replay and notice that going into a corner, so-and-so didn't give
me an inch of room on my outside, man what was he thinking!!  But then
I realize, that he trusted me completely to keep my line and not take
him out....hmm, all of a sudden I'm smiling... yeah that was a great
race, yeah, it truly was!!

I am absolutely positive that we all can have the same experiences
on-line.  And knowing that most if not all of the racers on-line
participate in some type of league already, it's just a matter of time
before more leagues that run on a consistent basis sprout up.  If the
new leagues use the Pro-HCS rules as the foundation, then the racing
will be just as fun and safe.  And who knows maybe you'll land a spot
in the "PRO" <G>!!

So this leaves us with the problem of getting on-line and into your
league race without fear of being unable to get in.  I personally
think leagues should be a top priority.  I plan on running in 2 or 3
leagues a week.  And if others are planning on doing the same then we
are guaranteed customers that will be there time and time again, and
should get first dibs on our league nights.  Just as a bowling alley
makes its living off of leagues that run all the time, so should
Papyrus.  You don't bump a league to accommodate others who won't be
there week in and week out, it just does not make good business sense.
If we come up with schedules that clearly illustrate what time and how
many will be on-line then we should be given the space that guaranteed
business deserves!!!!  Papyrus is a very open-minded company that
listens to its customers, period.  If any of you plan on running
serious leagues through the Papyrus Network, this is your chance to
help ensure that we have the opportunity.  Constant pick-up races are
fine but there has got to be room for leagues too.  A few veterans & I
had planned on starting up some leagues for the new drivers but under
the current circumstances it is impossible.   As you can tell by now,
if your not asleep, this is veery important to me, so if ALL not just
Terry Adams, Bill Dillon, Larry Holbert and myself respond to this
message and put their 2 cents into the pot then we'll have a million
bucks which carries weight no matter what part of the car you shift it
too<G>.

Rhawn "Ripp" Black
---------------------------
Virtual Velocity Racing
Pro-HCS Board Member

"Race for the Sake of the Race"

Wow... and I thought I wrote a lot on r.a.s.!!! :-)

I can't tell you how much we appreciate (& need) the type of great feedback that you posted in
this message.  Your help in closed beta & now in open beta is appreciated more than you know.  
PLEASE keep those cards and letters coming.  [BTW, that applies to everyone out there.]

I'd like to try to address some of the points you made in your note...

Before I start, we all need to keep a couple of things in mind.  First, we are in open beta
right now.  Yes, there are still bugs that we need to address.  We got to the point in closed
beta where we felt it was good enough to release to open beta, and we needed more volume & input
to perfect it.  As the saying goes, "we have our best people working on it".  With that said
however, we must remember that it is beta.  Second, we have limited capacity right now.  

As many of you have started to see, we are pushing & sometimes exceeding the capacity of the
system.  We're only 2 weeks into open beta & the demand has exceeded our wildest dreams.  That's
great from one aspect, and bad from another.  The bad part is what you pointed out, Rhawn,
sometimes, beta testers -- ALL beta testers, either league/series members or fans of pickup
races -- might not be able to get online.  Obviously, we can't let that happen.

Although I understand your point about priority for league/series members, there are 2 problems
with it.  First, given the infrastructure, we can not technically do it.  Second, even if we
could do it, I don't think that it is the solution.  I think the real solution is to handle a
higher capacity... or, to handle the capacity better.

Let me go off on a bit of a tangent before I discuss what we're doing now to handle the capcity
issue...  We are building multiplayer NASCAR for anyone/everyone who wants to use it.  That
means everyone from the first time user all the way up to the serious competitor with a skill
level of 15.  The trick is to figure out how to set up the system so these extremes, and
everyone in the middle, can have their own type of fun.  That is a daunting challenge, at best.

Does this mean we are building a demolition derby service?  No.  We will not.  Does it mean that
we want people who get into a lot of accidents because they're just learning to feel welcome &
have a good time?  Yes.  Does this mean that the more experienced drivers have to put up with
the beginners?  No.  That's my point... that's what we're trying to do.  [BTW, the beginners
don't want to have to put up with the 15's out there, either... that's not any fun for anyone.]

OK, so here we are with a capacity for 128 concurrent users, with demand already exceeding
supply at times. "What are you gonna do, Ed?"...

Starting next week, we are going to change the signup process for Hawaii.  Currently, users
download the client, unzip it, run ETERM, fill in the signup info, dial in, & get right into the
racing action.  Starting next week, when a new user dials in for the first time, they will not
get immediate access to the service.  We will set up their account, and then manually give them
access to the service as capacity allows.  In other words, they will sign up, their account will
be put into a queue, and we will authorize new users as capacity allows.  We need to
control/slow down the volume of new users on the system.  It's going to be a tough balancing
act.  We want to let new beta testers in ASAP, but we don't want to (read WE WILL NOT) shut out
our current beta testers.  [BTW, given the rate & trend of new user signups, I don't think
people are going to have to wait very long.]

Let me make myself perfectly clear to everyone: we will not let the popularity of this beta test
have a negative effect on our testers.  If you are a beta tester now, THANK YOU!!!!!  PLEASE
keep coming back, and PLEASE give us as much input as you can.  We will do all that we can on
our end to make sure you have the best possible experience, including making sure that y'all can
get online & enjoy the service whenever you want to.

With all of that said, I want to make sure that everyone also understands that we are in open
beta to get as much input as possible from as big/wide an audience as possible.  We want new
users to join the beta test... we need new users to join the beta test.  That's why we're doing
it.  However, for the sake of all beta testers -- current & new -- we do not want anyone to hear
the busy signal when you try to call.  That's no fun for anyone.

"OK, that's short-term, Ed, how are you really gonna solve it?"  Economics 101.  We've got a
demand exceeding supply problem here.  [BTW, if you think it's bad now, imagine what it will be
like once we solve the local access # issue!]  We can either A) figure out how to limit demand;
or B) figure out how to increase supply.

Option A is the most hideous thing that has ever passed through my keyboard.  It is 200%
contradictory to what we really want to do.  We want to increase demand on this thing to make it
the biggest online attraction ever.  That will happen over time.

Option B is where we're going.  But it takes time.  The plan is to have virtually unlimited
capacity, and to make access as inexpensive as possible.  I can't get into more details, but
please believe me, our goal is to get as many people into this thing, and to make it as
inexpensive as possible.  That is the #1 priority.

Rhawn, as always, your points are very well taken.  I hope my response makes you feel a little
better about how we will address the issues in the short & long term.  Please, everyone, just
bear with us, trust us to listen to what you all have to say, trust us to do the right thing,
and HAVE FUN!  This beta test is just a dress rehersal for something even bigger.  However, as
is the case with any rehersal, there are going to be glitches.  Capacity is certainly one of
them.  

--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group

Joe

Dave "davids"

P.S. Rhawn, it's been a blast racing with you and the other "old-timers". I
was on vacation the last week, but I'm back and ready to swap paint with
you again. <g>

Rhawn,

I agree 100% with you on this.  I just ran my first quasi league race

I can see the potential for a top of the line "open" league race every
week where (and I know there's no capacity for this now but hey - lemme
dream <G>) there is totally open qualifying.  Do it just like Nascar - Let
the fastest guys each week in qualifying race each other on Sunday. If you
don't make it in qualifying you don't make the race.  

But I digress. <g>  League racers should pay for their season's worth of
league racing up front and then be guaranteed a spot on their night.  It
only makes sense.  It would be a shame if Papyrus chose any other
route.....

Phil
<PJYoung>  

Ed, Rick, Charlie,....et al
    Just a note to let you know how much we truly appreciate the effort
and the Hard Work!!!!   Y'all a putting in for OUR benefit.  It is a
pleasure to be involved in your Beta Test and we continue to look for
good things from you.  It certainly is a wonderful novelty to get access
and input from the designers themselves.  Keep up the Good Work!!!!

Keith Nelson
Pit Road

In your case, it is most likely due to a noisy connection.  We run
Hawaii with error correction turned off.  We have to for latency
reasons.  This amplifies any noise problems you might have on your phone
line.  Therefore, even though your modem connection might work with
other services, it might not work with Hawaii.  Although we do have a
number of users from Canada that do not have problems, I fear that the
international call might be the smoking gun.  You might want to talk
with your local phone company.

P.S.  We haven't given up on you!  :-)

--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group

I realize this can be a problem, but wouldn't it also cause problems
in eterm? In eterm file downloads I get sustained transfer rates of >
1000 CPS, and the latency appears to be very good as well (the packets
arrive faster than you can read the "x of x bytes" numbers - if I had
to guess it looks like 0.10 second latency).

I spoke with another user with the same problem, and he has similar
hardware to mine, including a late-model US Robotics modem (the USR
28.8k Sporster v.43 Modem/Fax). According to him, Hawaii phone tech
support told him they were having problems with late-model USR and
Gateway modems. This seems a more likely cause of the problem to me.

I'm not sure what I'd tell them that they could understand or do
anything about.

Thanks. I *do* appreciate the effort and support you and others have
given me. It might not always show because I want to play multiplayer
Nascar so bad I get frustrated at times.

Joe

You're right that eterm makes the conection & passes it to scheduler, then
NASCAR, but NASCAR is much more picky/demanding about the connection than
any of the other pieces.

Anyway, yes, there have been problems with USR Sportster modems.  We think
we are homing in on the solution.  It appears that no matter what modem
setup we have on the server side, the USR's sometimes do not turn off error
correction.  NASCAR will not work with error correction on.  I'm at home &
don't have any USR manuals here, but go through your manual & find the AT
commands that force off error correction (auto reliable mode) & data
compression.  You may also want to try to force the baud rate in the init
string.  I'd suggest starting at 9600.

If anyone reading this has a USR 28.8 with an init string that works,you
might want to post it to this thread

Let me know!
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group

Ed,
Using USR Sportster, upgraded to 33.6,
Init string: AT&F1
BAUD set to 19200

No problems at all on Hawaii

Hope this helps someone.
Ralph

/---------------------------------------------------------------------------\
/Ralph Williams           My real .sig file is in the shop getting repaired.\

/---------------------------------------------------------------------------\

I am having the same problem with using Hawaii. It started when I
tried to use the May 3rd update. WAITING FOR REMOTE and then an e p in
the left hand bottom part of the Window. I had the phone company out
to test the line and they were here for 2 hours checking the line and
said it met all specs for line noise and was fine. When i use the
first version of multi.exe it works fine. Why???? I have a lifesyle
Motorola 28.8 internal modem and have tried all settings. 9600,14400
19200 etc.
Bruce Chandley