rec.autos.simulators

by **ttam** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

>Oh come on. They're not appauling. GT has the best graphics of any PSX
>racing game.

That isn't saying much though, GT graphics still are low res mess. To
me they don't look that different to Ridge Racer, if you compare the
difference to hires PC driving games.

Excuse me? I have never seen my GT running anywhere even near 50 fps
(I have PAL version, so the max it could run anyway is 50 fps).
I think it runs at 25 fps and less all the time, most of the time
less. Far from silky smooth (but then not very jerky either).

Funny, I think it blows, at least for GT. It is far too imprecise.
I would love to use a full size analog stick with GT instead for the
added accuracy, maybe one day I will buy such device for PSX.

Yeah, it is kinda neat how the controller vibrates every now and then,
but come on, it isn't that good.

Yes, but that is mostly just due to the lack of driving sims for PSX.

I guess I belong into that minority too. If the majority really thinks
GT has great graphics and controls (with dualshock), then the majority
just doesn't seem to know better, they haven't seen and felt better
racing sims (on e.g. PC).

by **ttam** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

>OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any
>REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair

I think he said "FAKE cars". Maybe he meant the way how some of the
cars go much faster (per hp) than they would in real life? That is
fake, I guess.

by **John Walla** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:01:38 +0000, Kevin Clark

>OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any
>REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair
>guess that he hasn't played it, yes?

I must admit that one confused me a bit - I thought GT was purely
based around "real" cars, so to hear there was nothing real in it
seemed, well, misguided!

Cheers!
John

by **collect** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

couldnt said it better myself i thought i was the only one having

of those gamepads a great shame for a good game
cu

by **Paul Jone** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> Oh come on. They're not appauling. GT has the best graphics of any PSX
> racing game.

I think you'll find that I said this - "....these two titles offer some of the best
graphics to be had on that platform [PSX]". But yes, that is appalling, because PSX
graphics are equivalent to PC graphics of 3-5 years ago (that's a very long time in
the computer world).

I get better graphics on a 133MHz I own.

I don't expect it to - that's the problem.

Don't think so. Maybe in the States but certainly not of PAL version sold over here.
The average tv can't provide the required Hertz.

Must confess, I never saw Michael Schumaker or Jeff Gordon power their vehicles
through a corner using a half inch vibrating *** mushroom - I can't have been
keeping up with the leading edge of racing technology.

That just about sums it up - little touches on the power (and the steering) - you
can't do things in gradually increasing or decreasing graceful arcs because you've
only got a few millimeters of travel.

I never criticised GT (or TOCA2 for that matter) - just the platform. At 99.00 what
could you expect - you get what you pay for (though the titles cost 50% more than pc
ones - that wouldn't be Sony raking in a percentage for something they didn't lift a
finger for).

Am I? I am genuinely surprised - how can anyone play the same game on both platform
and not reach this conclusion? I guess to someone who operates a moustachioed Italian
or a cartoon hedgehog with an up or down arrow, it may seem obvious that you would
drive a car in the same way. Every kid I've ever seen pick up a dual shock for the
first time turns it like a wheel out of pure instinct.
Sure, a PSX is an affordable way to play computer games and GT is a fun game, but,
hey, lets not pretend any more than that until it gets a pc port.

Cheers,
Paul

by **Mike Zamaroc** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Ok Kevin, maybe I should rephrase my comments. It just irks me to no end
when some folks try to say GT is THE BEST Racing Game ever, or specially
when they try to pass it off as a sim. Your comment about BEST on a PSX is
more correct. Now concerning depth, I mean sure it has kind of a campaign
mode, but it is not based on any real race or racing season/series (like
GPL, TOCA, F1RS, GP2, etc), nor is any track on it a real circuit. And it
may have 200 cars, but face it, most of them are Japanese Imports and not
the fine tuned Euro machinery. This game CAN compete with NFS or Test Drive,
but can not compare to racing sims, and specially Pro Sportscar Racing (IF
it is as good as it looks so far).

And I have tried GT a number of times, but I just can't get that arcade
coin-op feeling out of my head while I play it, and I said PLAY it. Makes me
want to look for the coin/token slot <G>. Now TOCA2 or Viper Racing still
has some problems, but after years of real racing, I feel more at home in
TOCA2 or Viper than I do in GT.

Oh, but I sure DO agree with your comments about going around in circles! I
am a road racer, and will remain a road racer! But sadly, no matter HOW real
a PC sim gets, it still will never replace the rush of flying down the
straight at Road America heading down towards Turn 5 at top end! Specially
in a 79 RX7 spewing flames out the 5" Suppertapp <G>. Hell, I even ran out
of revs in 5th gear there!

> > > http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html
> > > A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT
for
> > > sheer depth!

> > Depth??? Sheer Depth???? What LSD are you on man???? This is a FANTASY
game
> > with FAKE cars and FANTASY tracks.

> You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off
> games that they haven't actually played.

> GT has over 200 REAL cars. Viper GTS, Honda NSX, TVR's, Aston Martins
> etc etc I agree that it is a bit arcady and that the PC has GPL which is
> much better in terms of physics and depth (yes I do play that too) but
> GT in it's own right is easily the best racer on the PSX. The game DOES
> have depth in that there is pressure to win races to gain money to
> upgrade your car. You have to adapt to different driving styles as there
> are championships specifically for front wheel drive, rear wheel drive
> and 4 wheel drive and the cars handle noticibly differently. I'd much
> rather race the well made GT tracks than trot round some oval for 2
> hours. Left, straight, left, straight, left, straight..........

> You could start a whole new thread here but what, exactly, is depth?

> Kev

by **Mike Zamaroc** » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Ok, they are based on real cars, but mainly street cars. But everything else
is fantasy in this game. No matter how good the graphics are, or the cars, I
still can't help looking for the coin/token slot. When you drive in GPL,
F1RS, TOCA 1&2 - you know it is near real. For example, after playing TOCA
1&2, when I watch the BTCC video tapes (from Duke Video), I actually can
tell where the cars are on the track because the game tracks are pretty darn
accurate. And as I have raced at Road America in the past, when playing Cart
Racing, I know exactly where I am on the track, almost down to where my
favorite BRAT (Bratwurst) Food Stand was! Hmmm, NOW I am hungry!!!!! <G> And
now I wish there was a sim that included Riverside - I really miss that
track :(

> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:01:38 +0000, Kevin Clark

> >OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any
> >REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair
> >guess that he hasn't played it, yes?

> I must admit that one confused me a bit - I thought GT was purely
> based around "real" cars, so to hear there was nothing real in it
> seemed, well, misguided!

> Cheers!
> John

by **Kevin Clar** » Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> > I've never tried a mad catz wheel but the dual shock control is
> > excellent (if you set the throttle to the right stick and steering on
> > the left) You CAN feel the car on the limit of traction due to the
> > excellent implementation of the 'shock' and the car is also very
> > controllable.

> Must confess, I never saw Michael Schumaker or Jeff Gordon power their vehicles
> through a corner using a half inch vibrating *** mushroom - I can't have been
> keeping up with the leading edge of racing technology.

But you can also play GPL and ICR etc with a keyboard (I know, I've
tried and it's fine). It doesn't necessarily make them any less
immersive. You could easily say that race cars don't have a nice comfy
sofa and a thin plastic steering wheel. How far do you want to go with this?

Yes you can because the sticks are analogue controllers.

GT's not out on the pc......

Don't play those games, I'm 29 :)

I agree, it's a game, and a good one at that, I'm just saying that I
think you're being a little harsh in comparing it to GPL and the like in
terms of physics and graphics. The pc is a great platform for sims. The
average age of owners/users is quite high and the complexity of the
games (both driving and flying) reflects that but I and many other PSX
owners think that GT is easily the best racer on that platform and is
very realistic. The numerous setting on the cars have realistic effects
on the handling/performance and as such doesn't that make it a sim?

I'm interested in something. Do you think TOCA or GT has the better
physics model?

Kev
Defending to the end :)

by **Kevin Clar** » Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> Ok Kevin, maybe I should rephrase my comments. It just irks me to no end
> when some folks try to say GT is THE BEST Racing Game ever, or specially
> when they try to pass it off as a sim. Your comment about BEST on a PSX is
> more correct.

We agree on something. Hurrah :)
I'll be the first to admit is not the best ever on all platforms. GPL
does it for me in that respect.
What constitues a sim though? What is it about the game that most
definately NOT simulation (apart from the lack of damage which was a
license agreement with the manufacturers). There are car settings for
dampers, spring rates, camber, gearing, downforce and many others that
all affect the handling realistically. OK the tracks aren't REAL but
they look real as far as the graphics can go and give a good sense of
speed. I could go on about other aspects but I'm interested in the sim
answer bit.

Yes but surely you've got to compare like with like. TOCA etc are proper
racing series. GT is just real road cars racing round a track (which is
what Viper is isn't it? This group seems to love that but it's no
different to GT....). Just because it's not based on a real championship
that means it has no depth of gameplay?

Kev

> And I have tried GT a number of times, but I just can't get that arcade
> coin-op feeling out of my head while I play it, and I said PLAY it. Makes me
> want to look for the coin/token slot <G>. Now TOCA2 or Viper Racing still
> has some problems, but after years of real racing, I feel more at home in
> TOCA2 or Viper than I do in GT.

> Oh, but I sure DO agree with your comments about going around in circles! I
> am a road racer, and will remain a road racer! But sadly, no matter HOW real
> a PC sim gets, it still will never replace the rush of flying down the
> straight at Road America heading down towards Turn 5 at top end! Specially
> in a 79 RX7 spewing flames out the 5" Suppertapp <G>. Hell, I even ran out
> of revs in 5th gear there!

> > > > http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html
> > > > A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT
> for
> > > > sheer depth!

> > > Depth??? Sheer Depth???? What LSD are you on man???? This is a FANTASY
> game
> > > with FAKE cars and FANTASY tracks.

> > You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off
> > games that they haven't actually played.

> > GT has over 200 REAL cars. Viper GTS, Honda NSX, TVR's, Aston Martins
> > etc etc I agree that it is a bit arcady and that the PC has GPL which is
> > much better in terms of physics and depth (yes I do play that too) but
> > GT in it's own right is easily the best racer on the PSX. The game DOES
> > have depth in that there is pressure to win races to gain money to
> > upgrade your car. You have to adapt to different driving styles as there
> > are championships specifically for front wheel drive, rear wheel drive
> > and 4 wheel drive and the cars handle noticibly differently. I'd much
> > rather race the well made GT tracks than trot round some oval for 2
> > hours. Left, straight, left, straight, left, straight..........

> > You could start a whole new thread here but what, exactly, is depth?

> > Kev

by **Mike Zamaroc** » Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Kevin Clark

> > Ok Kevin, maybe I should rephrase my comments. It just irks me to no end
> > when some folks try to say GT is THE BEST Racing Game ever, or specially
> > when they try to pass it off as a sim. Your comment about BEST on a PSX
is
> > more correct.
> We agree on something. Hurrah :)
> I'll be the first to admit is not the best ever on all platforms. GPL
> does it for me in that respect.
> What constitues a sim though? What is it about the game that most
> definately NOT simulation (apart from the lack of damage which was a
> license agreement with the manufacturers). There are car settings for
> dampers, spring rates, camber, gearing, downforce and many others that
> all affect the handling realistically. OK the tracks aren't REAL but
> they look real as far as the graphics can go and give a good sense of
> speed. I could go on about other aspects but I'm interested in the sim
> answer bit.

Ok, my definition of a sim is a game that makes me feel I am really there,
doing it. The number of times I've played GT, I just don't feel it. The
screen does not give me the impression I am there doing it, and driving the
cars do not either. But then GPL is a wee bit overboard in this sense. I
think it goes too far the other way, but then as I am too young to have
driven those cars (started racing in 1974), I can only base this on what I
drove: Spits, GT6, Lotus Europa, Eng Ford Cortina, RX7, CRX Si, but the
Europa WAS quite near a formula car with a full body (and mid engined too)
<G>, and it was never that twitchy. So for me, so far, TOCA2 gives me the
best visual perception of being back on the track, and the feeling like I am
driving a real race car. Its not perfect (AI drivers STILL hold better in
turns then they should), but I sure get that ol' feeling when driving in
them (as well as the ol' andreno rush).

- Show quoted text -

For driving plain street cars, Viper has some good points to it over GT as
well, but I am not quite sold on its shifting and torque curve properties.
We'd need a real Viper Driver's opinion on that, but I feel it drops off the
torque too fast. But it does give a good impression of struggling with a
beast of a car (Viper or C5 Vette) going through turns quite fast. Right now
I have an Audi A4, but I want to get that new BMW "M" Coupe (the 2 setae
based on the ZM Roadster). I have test driven it a number of times, as well
as driven a buddy's M3, and these handle way better in REAL life than the
cars in VIPER. They both just about go where you point them, and very
accurately too! And both cars, even in unmodified street garb, handle way
better than most of these PC/PSX games make cars out to handle. But again,
the game in my view that comes closest to this is TOCA2 , and next is Viper.

by **MCastil** » Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:00:00

As a long time Playstation owner and a new PC owner ( I have had a PC
for a long time, just never played games on it.) , I just bought a 450
MHz, 128 MB, 16M RIVA TNT... machine just for playing games. I must
admit the graphics are nice and the game play is neat. But I still
think that after 2 weeks at GPL, GT is a better game over-all. Over
all meaning as a long term game to have and enjoy. Sure GPL is a
pretty good 'sim' and GT is more game the sim, but GT is fun, and in
depth. It took me a month to complete the game, and it wasn't
frustrating, just a lot of stuff to try (and for those of us into
specializing the cars represented in the game, a little fantasy
shopping). I still go back and play, and that makes it a worthwhile
game (considering i have a pile of games that are completed and I
wouldn't play again.) to me.

Also, GT never crashes in the middle of the game, making you reboot
and hope that it saved your last set of changes to the car. It
doesn't need specific drivers for what ever hardware you have. And I
don't have to go out and spend $200 for some sort of feedback in the
controls.

My PC cost me $2000 plus $49 for GPL and $40 for a controller.
My Playstation (in today's terms) $129 plus $40 for GT (it comes with
a controller). Do the math.... in monetary terms I think GT comes out
in the fun per dollar aspect.

just my opinion,

M

>>http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html
>>A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for
>>sheer depth!

>GT is good, but it's not THAT good.

>Cheers!
>John

by **Paul Jone** » Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> But you can also play GPL and ICR etc with a keyboard

You can but I don't and won't. I'd rather do something else.

Let's agree to differ.

My TSW is not a thin plastic wheel and I don't race from a sofa - that'll be the PSX
you're thinking of.:-)

Not very far :-)

I know - my point was it's hard to be smooth with "a few millimeters of travel".
Obviously, you've got the hang of it but I can't be bothered and am not tempted because I
can just power up Big Bertha here and use a bolted down steering wheel with 11 inch
diameter and 330 degrees of travel and pedals with 2 inches of travel. Bit more like a
real car, don't you think?

I know - I thought we both understood that.

By kids, I meant my kids and their friends. They are 4 and 7. That don't actually play
Sonic or Super Mario but the point is the same. I was not accusing you of being a kid -
for starters I've never seen you, so I couldn't have seen you pick up a dual shock.

I'm not comparing GT with GPL, I'm comparing PSX with PC and saying that PSX is not a
platform on which you can run a simulation. An F1 Ferrari is a hell of a car but you can't
judge it's performance by driving it in my small garden.

Exactly.

I agree.

I can't tell.

That and the settings having the correct effect on the car and the car handling ok etc etc

***e. I haven't played GT enough to say - it seems quite good but, as I said before,
it's really hard to evaluate it on the PSX with the available controllers, the fps and the
resolution. TOCA2 seems pretty good too a lot better than TOCA1 (though Fran?ois would not
agree). However I have had the advantage of playing TOCA2 demo on a PII 400MHz with SLI
and a TSW Sport so GT doesn't really stand a chance!!! Why don't Sony stop money-grubbing
and let the developers (now a separate company) port it to the PC? Apparently it was
written in a way that would facilitate an easy port. Once again, as so often, Sony are the
villians of the piece. (One of my hate companies along with Microsoft, Intel, News
Inernational, all UK supermarkets and worst of all, Monsanto).

Cheers,
Paul

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> As a long time Playstation owner and a new PC owner ( I have had a PC
> for a long time, just never played games on it.) , I just bought a 450
> MHz, 128 MB, 16M RIVA TNT... machine just for playing games. I must
> admit the graphics are nice and the game play is neat. But I still

The graphics are just nice compared to the Playstation? You better
go have your eyes checked...

Oh boy, so you either have a sim or fun. Sorry, lots of people have
lots of fun with sims like GPL.

Depth? I'll be playing GPL for at least another year and will definitly
NOT complete (?) it by then.

GPL is frustrating if you need to make first spot in every race.
That's possible in arcade racers, not in sims...well, you could slow
down the AI to a crawl ;^)

GPL never crashed on my system, except that freeze on startup which was
easily fixed.

FF is a feature. You don't like it, you don't buy it. It's that easy!
No sim REQUIRES an FF wheel.

If all you do with your PC is games, and only arcade games, surely the
Playstation is the way to go. But if you do <long list of nice things
to do> with your PC as well, the picture is quite different.

same here

l8er
ronny

--
Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

by **John Walla** » Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:00:00

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:40:45 +0100, Ronald Stoehr

>> My PC cost me $2000 plus $49 for GPL and $40 for a controller.
>> My Playstation (in today's terms) $129 plus $40 for GT (it comes with
>> a controller). Do the math.... in monetary terms I think GT comes out
>> in the fun per dollar aspect.

>If all you do with your PC is games, and only arcade games, surely the
>Playstation is the way to go. But if you do <long list of nice things
>to do> with your PC as well, the picture is quite different.

On top of that, I played GP2 for two years, GPL already for something
similar and NASCAR2 about the same. I played NFS3 for about a week,
maybe two at the top. If you factor in that a sim captures your
attention for two years at a total cost of $2,089, a console will
require $129 + $40 x 52 = $2,209.

Wow, my PC is cheaper than a console for the same level of
entertainment!

John

PS - If we're talking about "today's terms" pricing for the console
then like with like should apply for the PC - it's an unusual PC that
costs $2k these days.

by **MCastil** » Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:00:00

What backwards school did you not graduate from. According to your
formula you would buy a new Playstation and game every week. It should
be (129+40)/52= 3.25. This doesn't take in account that fact that you
can rent games for a buck a day in most places. If you played GPL for
a year (1700+40+40)/52 = 32.23 per week that you played. I feel for
you parents that paid for your education.

In today's money a full top of the line computer will still cost you
$2000. Hop on the web and check out Dell.com or any other
manufacturer.

I swear you people are way too serious about this shit. You forget its
just a game, and its just one person's opinion. You need to get uo
from the computer and go out and play with the other kids for a while.

rec.autos.simulators

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced

Gran Turismo 2 announced