rec.autos.simulators

by **Jerry Jona** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:22:44

And I guess, 7 years to build WSC !
.......yawn

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:52:43

Different genre but you might get the point.
A10 Warthog by Janes...within weeks of completion...Project cancelled by EA.
A helicopter sim due about one year after Longbow2(sorry I forgot the
details)
Eidos buys the publishing rights and closes the project down. Moves the
team over
to Confirmed Kill. Did Confirmed Kill EVER get released?
Just about every title except Half Life at Sierra gets squashed. Teams are
laid off,
re-assigned. Falcon 4 team gets fired leaving Mig-29 stillborn.
The money-grubbing bean counters that fund the West brothers will only
wait so
long before they A) force a release of an unfinished product.
B) Kill the project outright
C) Sell WSC to a company that only makes
Playstation games.
We have 'reason' to be, if anything, concerned.
dave henrie

> > They are only human ya know... and even god took
> > 7 days to build the earth...

> > Cheers,

> > Schumi

by **Tom Pabs** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:49:25

GraDee.......

As I read your post, I was struck with the thought that it would have been
nice for you to let us know the depth of your credentials, re: creating a
racing sim from scratch. Could you do that? If you have no background in
pc-based game creation, racing sim or no racing sim...maybe you could tell
us about the track graphics editing you do? Or, maybe the sound editing you
do?

And.....just to refresh your memory.....N4 was some 18 months late...maybe
longer, I lost count waiting for it actually. And, I think Papy has about
40 employees (down from the 80 or so that created N2 and GPL). The West
brothers....are a "team of two." I wondered if that had an impact on your
thinking?

Also...I should think you'd be interested in this fact. Even though N4 has
been released.....I think it would be a general concensus among RAS N4
drivers.........that it is NOT completed. Would I be right there? And, I
doubt it will be completed even after the first official "patch" comes
out....or the next.

What this racing sim community could use most.....is a "universal"
sim...with an open code. I believe N4 has the potential to become
that.....with some changes in the code...and a bit of "influence peddling"
on Papy's part. I know WSC has the potential to become just that. I also
believe.....Chris and Tony have that in mind!

To Chris and Tony West......just keep on pluggin' away guys.....we're all
behind you (well, most of us are behind you.....that is)........just get it
close....and let the rest of us help you finish it off....if that could ever
be possible even?

Regards,

Tom Pabst

PS: I drove WSC at E3 last year........it wasn't a "fake" movie. And....it
was mind-numbingly awesome! If the price tag where $500 big ones for the
retail "box"......I'd still wait in line all day to buy it....probably still
buy 4 or 5 of them too. And, when the Empire version of WSC is
released....I'm going to do my darndest to get my "game box" autographed by
Chris and Tony West......that's how "significant" I believe their
contribution to this sim racing community is going to become!

by **Simon Brow** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:40:26

How many of those games were being written by 2-man developement teams?
Publishers typically cancel games when they don't think they're going to
make enough back to cover the continued costs of developement. Empire only
have to pay two wages to get WSC finished. Also it depends on what kind of
deal the West Brothers have with Empire. Some developers keep copyright of
their own code, in which case cancellation would only cause a delay.

Every different publisher has their own standards and judges these things
differently. The majority of late games are still published.

There's an interview with the West Brother in this months PC Zone (uk) and
they still sound extremely positive. I think it's a little early to give up
on the project.

> > As for the game becoming vapour-ware, that's just crazy. They're
working
> on
> > the game just as much right now as they were this time last year. Every
> > time they've given a potential finish date, they've obviously
> underestimated
> > how long the project would take to finish, but as long as they keep
going,
> > at some point it will be finished, even if it's 2 years away.

> Different genre but you might get the point.
> A10 Warthog by Janes...within weeks of completion...Project cancelled by
EA.
> A helicopter sim due about one year after Longbow2(sorry I forgot the
> details)
> Eidos buys the publishing rights and closes the project down. Moves the
> team over
> to Confirmed Kill. Did Confirmed Kill EVER get released?
> Just about every title except Half Life at Sierra gets squashed. Teams
are
> laid off,
> re-assigned. Falcon 4 team gets fired leaving Mig-29 stillborn.
> The money-grubbing bean counters that fund the West brothers will only
> wait so
> long before they A) force a release of an unfinished product.
> B) Kill the project outright
> C) Sell WSC to a company that only makes
> Playstation games.
> We have 'reason' to be, if anything, concerned.
> dave henrie

> > > They are only human ya know... and even god took
> > > 7 days to build the earth...

> > > Cheers,

> > > Schumi

by **Joe Marque** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:47:58

Damn! Now I know why my claim of having a very large "axle" never worked
;).

by **Tim McArthu** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:58:56

It's rare, but yes sometimes I agree with Tom. From personal experience
working in the software industry (though only a short period of time
compared to many others) these products are NOT done within a reasonable
amount of time anymore. N4's creation was way back in 1998 and even earlier
if you think about the fact that GPL was kind of a testing ground for the N4
code. Now, as for the West brothers attempting to create, or simulate, as
best as possible an auto-racing sport as a whole... it will take some time,
not just a matter of 1 to 2 years. N4 took a minimum of 3 years and they
(Papy) already had all the figures, notes, specs, etc., to create this sim,
or at least the portions that they did complete before release.

10 years ago PC games would fit onto one floppy disk, now they reside on a
600+ CD and even multiple CD's. The amount of coding that these guys have to
do is amazing. Not even taking in that the West brothers are not basing
their product off an already existing product... it is being built from
scratch. This means they have to also create and debug each and every tool
the use to create the product. From car editors, to track editors, each of
these could take more time then actually putting the product together after
the fact.

I know from my personal experience in track creating for the N3 product that
each of these tracks take a couple months to build properly. Some took
nearly 6 months by themselves.... and this is only 1 stinking track... no
car physics, user interface, etc. I am able to cut a lot of corners and
release a fairly good track, minus some realism and flash, in a matter of a
couple weeks, but I am not getting the impression from the West brothers
that they are cutting any corners. We already have enough half-assed sims
out there (pretty much all of them currently)... for once I would like to
see one sim hit the shelves complete... even it is in 2015, it will most
likely still be the first... It is our fault as the consumers... we keep
buying these half-finished products, giving the "OK" to the Sierra's and
EA's of the world to keep on giving us crappy software and hopefully patch
it afterwards.

: GraDee.......
:
: As I read your post, I was struck with the thought that it would have been
: nice for you to let us know the depth of your credentials, re: creating a
: racing sim from scratch. Could you do that? If you have no background in
: pc-based game creation, racing sim or no racing sim...maybe you could tell
: us about the track graphics editing you do? Or, maybe the sound editing
you
: do?
:
: And.....just to refresh your memory.....N4 was some 18 months late...maybe
: longer, I lost count waiting for it actually. And, I think Papy has about
: 40 employees (down from the 80 or so that created N2 and GPL). The West
: brothers....are a "team of two." I wondered if that had an impact on your
: thinking?
:
: Also...I should think you'd be interested in this fact. Even though N4
has
: been released.....I think it would be a general concensus among RAS N4
: drivers.........that it is NOT completed. Would I be right there? And, I
: doubt it will be completed even after the first official "patch" comes
: out....or the next.
:
: What this racing sim community could use most.....is a "universal"
: sim...with an open code. I believe N4 has the potential to become
: that.....with some changes in the code...and a bit of "influence peddling"
: on Papy's part. I know WSC has the potential to become just that. I also
: believe.....Chris and Tony have that in mind!
:
: To Chris and Tony West......just keep on pluggin' away guys.....we're all
: behind you (well, most of us are behind you.....that is)........just get
it
: close....and let the rest of us help you finish it off....if that could
ever
: be possible even?
:
: Regards,
:
: Tom Pabst
:
: PS: I drove WSC at E3 last year........it wasn't a "fake" movie.
And....it
: was mind-numbingly awesome! If the price tag where $500 big ones for the
: retail "box"......I'd still wait in line all day to buy it....probably
still
: buy 4 or 5 of them too. And, when the Empire version of WSC is
: released....I'm going to do my darndest to get my "game box" autographed
by
: Chris and Tony West......that's how "significant" I believe their
: contribution to this sim racing community is going to become!
:
:

by **Greg Campbel** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:05:11

> > Hype is inversely proportional to outcome.

> How simple life would be if this was universally true.

> GPL was hyped a hundred times more than Spirit of Speed 1937, and it's about
> a hundred times better.

I tried to calculate the exact ratio, but got a "divide by zero" error!

-Greg

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by **Andre Warrin** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:12:55

On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:40:20 GMT, "Simon Brown"

>How simple life would be if this was universally true.

>GPL was hyped a hundred times more than Spirit of Speed 1937, and it's about
>a hundred times better.

Hmm.. was GPL hyped? At that time I didn't read RAS, just the games
magazines. And besides an occasional preview I hardly read anything
about it. The demo didn't work on my pc so I skipped it. Who cares
about old cars anyway I thought..
Imagine my amazement when I tried the full game for the first time..

Andre

>> Hype is inversely proportional to outcome.

by **Olav K. Malm** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:23:16

> On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:40:20 GMT, "Simon Brown"

> >How simple life would be if this was universally true.

> >GPL was hyped a hundred times more than Spirit of Speed 1937, and it's about
> >a hundred times better.

> Hmm.. was GPL hyped? At that time I didn't read RAS, just the games
> magazines. And besides an occasional preview I hardly read anything
> about it. The demo didn't work on my pc so I skipped it. Who cares
> about old cars anyway I thought..
> Imagine my amazement when I tried the full game for the first time..

GPL was hyped here allright :) About hype anyway : I think WSC is
hyped in another way than other sims. As far as I can see it, the
West's haven't done anything else than telling about the features in a
neutral way I think, but it's the community that has gone completely
bonkers about the whole thing. So is it really the West's fault that
some people think it will be the ultimate and some think that it won't
see the day of light ? They could of course done their stuff and not
said anything, like they did the first years of development, but
then we wouldn't have all the fun :)

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:38:30

GPL came out a few months before Speedvision, here in the States, found
sucess by
running a restored version of Grand Prix with James Garner. IF....Sierra
had merely
taken the GPL intro video and made a short TV comercial with it....Sales
would
have been much higher. (although returns probably would have too.) A
missed
opportunity.
dave henrie

by **Simon Brow** » Fri, 09 Mar 2001 02:45:53

On the same subject, does anyone know what can be considered good sales for
a racing sim? We've all read that GPL sold 40,000 copies, but then I read
that GP3, which is considered a commercial success has sold 70,000 copies
which doesn't seem a lot more to me.

Then I read somwhere else how POD had sold over 1 million copies. I know
that some publishers are prone to vast exaggeration with sales figures, and
maybe Ubisoft did this with POD. Obviously arcade racers are more popular
than sims, but GP3 is one of those titles that i'd expect to appeals to both
player types.

Then to confuse things even more, I read on www.avault.com that less than 1%
of PC titles sell over 50,000 copies.

by **Zonk** » Fri, 09 Mar 2001 02:51:36

AFAIK, GPL was 40K worldwide

UK pre-Xmas sales for Gp3 were 70k.

Shipout over Europe for Gp3 was IIRC, about 250k

?

Z.

by **GraDe** » Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:22:48

> > It's just a wish but if it ever appears on shelves (which I doubt it
will),
> > it will disappoint some.

> When you say "which I doubt it will" is that just purely based on there
> being no demo yet? Because the video looked real enough to me.

> Plus everything I've read leads me to believe WSC is a serious
> commercial venture. The West brothers seem like genuine sim fans who
> really care about what they're producing.

> So why so negative?

Oh, I'm sure it's very true! I also think the West brothers have a lot of
talent and genuinely want to make the best sim out there but lets be honest,
in 12 months we've seen little to nothing new. And as far as a 2001 release
goes? Well, I doubt it.
How long can they spend making this before they give up?

I'd love a great game but everyone as too high hopes for this.
Every game promises great things but usually compromises in the end.
From a game with such slow development and nothing but promises so far I
don't see what all the hype is about (yet).
That's all.

by **GraDe** » Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:37:24

Wasn't a demo promised aaaages ago? That's the point.
I don't care if a demo doesn't come out if it's not promised but it was
IIRC.
I'm only expecting what the developers are promising and I haven't seen any
yet after quite a wait. I don't expect it to be finished but i expected to
know a bit more now than I did 12 months ago and I haven't really.

> When EA's Madden 2001 was coming out, did you get a demo a year in
advance?
> Did you get 3 decent length videos showing the gameplay? I believe that
> game was released, so why are you so negative towards WSC. I think YOU
are
> expecting too much from the developers...They are working on developing a
> game instead of giving YOU lots of things to prove that it exists...how
can
> anyone be that cruel! (that was sarcastic) You normally don't hear about
a
> game until late in development...this is a game that has been revealed
very
> early on...don't strip the developers of their respect just because they
> told you they were making a game early on.

> Since you are so heavily held in your views, would you care to make a
wager
> concerning the release of this game?

> JB

> > World Sports Cars...
> > An imaginary sim which RASer's believe will revolutionise the industry

> > Ok, enough of the sarcasm.
> > So far after more than a year of promise after promise we still have no
> more
> > than a few screenshots of this sim. It claims to have this that and the
> > other thing and to have rolling videos and demo's showing all it's
> > capabilities but so far has produced nothing.
> > The still-lives look promising but chances are they are from an intro or
> > something judging by the nature of how they are taken
> > i.e. empty tracks, cars parked in strange places, 1 nice view into the
> >***pit.

> > If this ever does materialise into something and these are actual
gameplay
> > secrets we will need a super computer to play it, but since it's not
> likely
> > to be ready before 2015 then we should have those computers by then.

> > It's just a wish but if it ever appears on shelves (which I doubt it
> will),
> > it will disappoint some.

> > I'm hope so much that I'm proved wrong but so much is claimed for this
> game
> > but nothing's proven after almost a year.

> > > --Haven't been here in a while and N4 has clouded my mind since I
> > > first heard about it years ago.

> > > --What is WSC?

> > > --
> > > Member of the Nondeterministic Football League

by **GraDe** » Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:58:47

Hey, hang on now a minute!! Lets not get into a flame war.
My track graphic editing it was formerly on GP2.com which has now
disappeared and a certain amount of MGPRS2 editing which probably isn't
around any longer as both sims and sites have dyed out. I did a BTCC carset
from scratch for GP2 with the help of another doing the cartage and team
performances, numerous 1997-98 cars. i also was strongly involved in Track
editing for GP2, I didn't relase anything other than some track updates, I
was just there to do bits and pieces to help some others (beta testing,
etc,etc, etc...) So I did something just to let you know. Since then I've
moved on to spend more time drving than editing admittedly but it's not like
I'm a scrounge.

I do not however have any credentials for making a sim nor do you or most of
the people here. I wasn't attacking the West brothers, I have no doubt they
are hidden away working like crazy to produce this great sim. I just don't
think it'll fulfil all the hype if it is ever released.

There are lots of promises made but we've seen nothing yet. A demo promised
a long time ago will not be available for a long time to come. There are
plenty of lovely features that we hear about which are great but so far we
have only been told that they will be in the final product. So they are
merely on the TO DO list and we haven't seen that they will be included.
In 12 months we've only seen a few new screenshots which due to their nature
give me this niggly feeling they are not of gameplay but I may be wrong on
that.

The reason for the expectations for this sim is that the West Brothers came
to the public, announced what they *want* to make and asked what everyone
wanted in it.
Now everyone thinks that it will be made exactly as the West's wanted and
that all their ideas will be there... reality check guys... The Wests will
do their very best I' sure but they won't included everything or the physics
may not be a advanced as they *want* them to be.

Every game developer *wants* their game to have great physics but look what
some have churned out!!

We just have to be realistic, remember GP3? All the expectations for
features that were never going to be added and what happened when everyone
bought the game? These features that were only rumours from newsboards were
not there, yet everything Crammond himself promised was there, and more!

Ys it did, which is probably the reason for such a lenghty delay, but the
rumours were we'd be playing WSC by now, it's nowhere near completement.
Again, a promise that hasn't come true. So why the hype?

Which is what I fear for WSC, no sim or infact no software that is released
is ever 100% complete which is something that would kill WSC. I'm just
thinking along the lines of GP3 and what happened to that.

Um, not sure where you're going with that. Game Developers are there to make
money, either for luxury yachts to to scrape a day old loaf of bread.. they
do it for the money... an "open" game is a dream.

No, we are ALL behind you... this is nothing personal! The guys seem great
in waht they want to accomplish and how they are going about it.