rec.autos.simulators

WSC Force Feedback

Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sat, 29 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I'm writing this in response to the comments made about force feedback
technology in the recent sim-racing news article with the developers of
WSC.

Chris and Tony West, please don't underestimate the level of acceptance
that current FF wheels aleady enjoy, and the useful feedback they
provide.

Current FF isn't close to perfect.  It has some problems.  But it is
still extremely worthwile in it's current form, compared to the feedback
void that is the alternative.

My perception is that a person with a vested interest in diminishing the
positive aspects of current FF technology has latched onto the Wests,
and is having a negative impact on implementation of FF in WSC.

Here is a selected quote from the anti-FF person:

"Honestly, I prefer to drive without force feedback... At the moment, it
removes  you from the reality. If it doesn't feel exactly right, then it
spoils the fantasy."

And driving with a spring-loaded wheel delivers the ultimate in reality?
Please!  This comes from a person who makes a living from a product
which currently does not have an option for force feedback.

Kaemmers comments about transient weight shifting when entering a corner
is spot-on, and his recommendation is absolutely right - "don't pay
attention to it", just like you wouldn't pay attention to it if you were
driving a Hyperstim.  But, even on road courses, current FF wheels
deliver much needed force level feedback on the limits of traction
mid-corner.  I don't know about other people, but I never crash when
turning into a corner.  The critical points are mid-corner, and
unwinding back onto the straight. Transients in both of those areas are
slow enough to allow some degree of usable  feedback by current FF
wheels.

The thing that really gets under my skin about the interview are the
"dirty looks" from the anti-FF person, and his comment in response to
Chris West:

CW: We haven't put it [FF] in yet. But when we do, hopefully someone
like John will have developed a good force feedback wheel that we can
use it with.

JC: Well, we're waiting for you to finish development on this sim!
[laughs]

Maybe he really was joking, and they are well into development of a FF
wheel.  I  suspect, though, given his total dismissal of the current
state of FF technology, that it will be a long time before he delivers a
FF wheel.  Even then, how many of us will be able to afford one?

Bottom line - I hope that the West's are not using this anti-FF person
as their guiding light toward implementation of FF, because he has
already made clear his  self-serving opposition to it.

I hope that John Crooke's real intention is to move the technology
forward.  But  the West's should understand that most people are going
to use lower-end FF hardware.  GPL, GP3, and Viper racing have already
proven that this hardware is viable.  Very few people will ever find
themselves sitting in a FF Hyperstim, and even fewer people will ever
own one.

--
Pat Dotson

David L. Coo

WSC Force Feedback

by David L. Coo » Sat, 29 Jul 2000 04:00:00

My guess is the West brothers were only playing it down because John Crooke was
standing right there next to them.  They know that GPL FF is EXCELLENT.  I think
its hillarious when these controller manufacturers downplay FF because they
haven't yet created a device that supports it.

--David Cook


> I'm writing this in response to the comments made about force feedback
> technology in the recent sim-racing news article with the developers of
> WSC.

> Chris and Tony West, please don't underestimate the level of acceptance
> that current FF wheels aleady enjoy, and the useful feedback they
> provide.

Jan Verschuere

WSC Force Feedback

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Nice one Pat... I concur.

Jan.
=---

David Butte

WSC Force Feedback

by David Butte » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


<snip>
<snip>

Interesting post. And you're right - there's no point in writing WSC so
that it only works properly with a 2000 PC and a FF Hyperstim, as all
that will do is annoy the hell out of the "user community" the Wests
say they want to build up. It's got to be playable and enjoyable on a
reasonable spec machine. I don't expect it to work on my current
Celeron 400, but it would be a disaster if it were as inefficiently
coded as F12000, for example.

--
David. (GPLRank handicap: -3.01)
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Randy Rig

WSC Force Feedback

by Randy Rig » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I couldn't agree more, Pat. The whole time I was reading that I just
wanted to jump up and start defending FF as implemented in GPL. If
only I had been there :-)

In fact I just couldn't understand the point the JC was making about
hardware being the problem. I would think that from sim to wheel you
should be able to get the latencies inside 20 milliseconds and this
would seem plenty fast for me considering the latencies of humans.

That being said, Randy Cassidy was in VROC tonight and I asked him
that question, he said that latencies >1 (one!) millisec could begin
to be perceived. That is not at all what I would have expected, but,
GPL is a testament to the fact that the guy knows what he is talking
about.

Seems to me that GPL has done a pretty good job with prediction or
something because I've never noticed a delay in the FF.

WestBro's, Pat is right... FF works, even today (err... a couple of
years ago). Nothing is perfect, but, there *is* info in there and that
has to be a good thing.

Randy

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:57:33 -0500, Pat Dotson


>I'm writing this in response to the comments made about force feedback
>technology in the recent sim-racing news article with the developers of
>WSC.

>Chris and Tony West, please don't underestimate the level of acceptance
>that current FF wheels aleady enjoy, and the useful feedback they
>provide.

Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> My guess is the West brothers were only playing it down because John Crooke was
> standing right there next to them.  They know that GPL FF is EXCELLENT.  I think
> its hillarious when these controller manufacturers downplay FF because they
> haven't yet created a device that supports it.

When I wrote that, I hadn't even seen the interview
on the same site with a guy from HS.  He says it
will be 18 months to two years before they will
have FF available.

No wonder they are trying to talk people out of
today's FF!

--
Pat Dotson

Glen Pries

WSC Force Feedback

by Glen Pries » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Spot on, Pat!  I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem
to me that the West brothers were buying it.  There is NO ONE I respect
more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I
kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison
says and thinks!"  I think that she has further said that she would
NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version.
     I think they will SURELY not let that thing come out with no FF
when everything else about it seems to be so fabulous.
     Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility!  And are you going
to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington?

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Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Spot on, Pat!  I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem
> to me that the West brothers were buying it.  There is NO ONE I respect
> more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I
> kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison
> says and thinks!"  I think that she has further said that she would
> NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version.

I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't
include FF.  I just don't want the opinion that FF
is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal,
especially when that opinion comes from special
interests.

I'm sure I will be in Bloomington.  Let me know about
the kart thing!

--
Pat Dotson

Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Spot on, Pat!  I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem
> to me that the West brothers were buying it.  There is NO ONE I respect
> more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I
> kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison
> says and thinks!"  I think that she has further said that she would
> NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version.

I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't
include FF.  I just don't want the opinion that FF
is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal,
especially when that opinion comes from special
interests.

I'm sure I will be in Bloomington.  Let me know about
the kart thing!

--
Pat Dotson

Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Spot on, Pat!  I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem
> to me that the West brothers were buying it.  There is NO ONE I respect
> more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I
> kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison
> says and thinks!"  I think that she has further said that she would
> NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version.

I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't
include FF.  I just don't want the opinion that FF
is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal,
especially when that opinion comes from special
interests.

I'm sure I will be in Bloomington.  Let me know about
the kart thing!

--
Pat Dotson

Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Spot on, Pat!  I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem
> to me that the West brothers were buying it.  There is NO ONE I respect
> more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I
> kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison
> says and thinks!"  I think that she has further said that she would
> NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version.

I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't
include FF.  I just don't want the opinion that FF
is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal,
especially when that opinion comes from special
interests.

I'm sure I will be in Bloomington.  Let me know about
the kart thing!

--
Pat Dotson

Pat Dotso

WSC Force Feedback

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Spot on, Pat!  I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem
> to me that the West brothers were buying it.  There is NO ONE I respect
> more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I
> kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison
> says and thinks!"  I think that she has further said that she would
> NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version.

I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't
include FF.  I just don't want the opinion that FF
is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal,
especially when that opinion comes from special
interests.

I'm sure I will be in Bloomington.  Let me know about
the kart thing!

--
Pat Dotson

Neil Cannin

WSC Force Feedback

by Neil Cannin » Mon, 31 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Pat...please only hit enter once<G>


John Wallac

WSC Force Feedback

by John Wallac » Wed, 02 Aug 2000 04:00:00

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:57:33 -0500, Pat Dotson


>Here is a selected quote from the anti-FF person:
>"Honestly, I prefer to drive without force feedback... At the moment, it
>removes  you from the reality. If it doesn't feel exactly right, then it
>spoils the fantasy."

>And driving with a spring-loaded wheel delivers the ultimate in reality?
>Please!  This comes from a person who makes a living from a product
>which currently does not have an option for force feedback.

The purpose of a sim is to provide you with the best representation of
participating in what is being simulated yes? A sort of suspension of
disbelief.

For my own part I have tried now three different FF wheels, and
returned all of them, as I find that they break this illusion.
Everyone knows how a car should feel under their hands, and it
certainly doesn't try to jerk the wheel out of my hands when entering
a turn.

I'm sure FF will eventually reach a level where it does add to the
overall experience, and it will only do that through the cycle of
demand, development, support and feedback. However, right here and now
I haven't found it convincing or beneficial at all, so I suppose in
that I agree with your "anti-FF" person, although I myself am far from
anti-FF. I would question the benefit in terms of the quality of the
final product of dedicating a lit of development time to software
which does not and cannot have hardware to support it in the
foreseeable future. Add it as a patch "if and when".

Cheers!
John


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