rec.autos.simulators

It is. There's a fair bit of research that's been done on this, which seems to
suggest that a baby up to about 7 months can learn *any* language perfectly.
After that, the ability declines, and learning in ***hood is very difficult.
I know I have trouble with my Welsh.

--
David.
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

But Switzerland cannot be accused of not allowing German to flourish,
since three-quarters of Switzerland are set aside as German-only zones.
Of course, German is not allowed to flourish in the historically French
and Italian zones.

But Turkey is still going to be an EU member no matter what, I'd say.

Although one must not lose sight of the fact that German is not a
"minority" language in Switzerland.  French and Italian are.

All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed.  They are
circumscribed based on territoriality.

True, but this is a completely different issue.  And is it really that
much easier for a foreigner to obtain citizenship in EU member Germany
and EU member Great Britain?

Marco A.

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With more official bilinguality and triliniguality per region than I would
have expected.  I live in a German town, but all government documents are in
three languages.  Don't know about the schooling possibilities.

It's certainly no easier in America.  Overall, I have found the experience
of working as a foreigner in Switzerland quite painless, but that may
because I am in the technology industry.  I also know in the back of my mind
that I could have my permit refused for renewal the next time I go.
Citizenship?  Happy with my own, thanks.

Stephen
(who learned a bit about the place he lives)

You might also be interested in knowing that in the 60s or 70s, a group
of French-speaking parents living in Zurich wanted to open a French
private school with their own money.  The canton prevented them from
doing so, so the parents went to the federal court to request the right
to spend their money the way they wanted to.  The court ruled that the
canton was within its prerogatives to ban all French schooling
(including private schools).

According to the law, most signs in the Ticino must be in Italian only,
although some German signs are permitted (provided that Italian is still
pre***).  Prior to the passage of this law, the situation there was
very similar to that in Quebec pre-1977: mostly German-only signs in a
pre***ly Italian-speaking area, due to the demographic weight of
German speakers across Switzerland as a whole.

If such is true, then the people right across the street from me would
be in trouble: their English-only sign has been there for a few months.

Actually, their sign is (officially) illegal because it doesn't have any
French on it, not because it has English.

They are probably federal documents produced for distribution across the
country.  By law, almost all of the cantons are unilingual.  And
even those (two? three?) which are bilingual are split up into
French-only and German-only zones.

Schooling is generally only available in the canton's official language.
There are very very few exceptions : Fribourg/Freiburg and Biel/Bienne
are the only bilingual cities in Switzerland.  As well, French schooling
is available in the Swiss capital of Bern, although it is still
officially a German-only city.

To a Canadian, a city such as Geneva certainly appears to be much more
French than say, Montreal, in spite of the fact that 48% of Geneva's
population are "foreigners" of various nationalities prone to using
English as a lingua franca.

When one considers that French speakers (18%) in Switzerland are
proportionately less numerous than those in Canada (25%), yet there
is a total absence of secessionist movements in Suisse romande (read
French), there must be something right / wrong about the respective
"places" French has in both countries.

Marco A.

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Why shouldn't all the languages be allowed to flourish everywhere? Banning a
language is a regressive and repressive step. A German-only zone is just as bad
as an anti-German zone. If my (mostly white English-speaking) home town imposed
a ban on someone who wanted to set up (say) an Urdu-medium school, there would
be a huge outcry, and it would probably be ruled illegal.

It will be eventually, but only when it: a) allows Kurdish schooling and radio
(I checked, and this is a condition of entry), and b) drops the death penalty.

Well, in that case the equivalent would be a ban on English in the mostly
Welsh-speaking areas on North Wales. Which wouldn't be a good thing either.

Which has unpleasant resonances of the old South African "homelands".

If they're European and have lived and worked there for years. In the EU, you
can't use foreign labour for years and then throw people out when the economic
conditions get hard.

--
David.
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

When once considers Swiss and Central European demographics and economic
trends, allowing German to flourish (my term, I realize) everywhere in
such a small country would inevitably lead to an all-German Switzerland
within a few generations, or perhaps a breaking up of the country due to
a frustration with the encroachment of German on traditionally French-
or Italian-speaking areas.

It depends what you mean by "banning" a language.  In most instances in
Switzerland, none of the national languages are banned. However, the
national languages receive no government support outside of their
designated territory.

I will grant you that the interdiction of the French private school in
Zurich is a bit extreme.

Although you will admit that a comparison between the relative "power"
of Urdu in say, Lancashire, and German in Mitteleuropa is tenuous at
best.

penalty.

I do consider these requirements to be good things, BTW.

either.

Since I am neither Welsh, nor English, nor British, it is not really up
to me to decide what measures, if any, should be taken. That said, the
current free-for-all situation can only strengthen English to the
detriment of Welsh.  Eventually, these Welsh-speaking areas will
(unfortunately) become English-speaking like the rest of Great Britain.

Were the various nations that were herded into the bantustans
by South Africa consulted on this process?  Swiss language
territoriality is the result of a constitutional agreement between
willing parties.  There is no rapport whatsoever between Switzerland and
what happened in South Africa with the bantustans.

Though by no means perfect, language territoriality (like the Swiss and,
to a lesser degree, the Belgians) is a compromise solution intended to
prevent states from breaking up because of linguistic and cultural
tensions.

Marco A.

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<snip>

That's where we fundamentally disagree. Exactly that situation pervades
with respect to English in Wales - English is everywhere, a
necessary language to get by in, and there are, for practical purposes,
no monoglot Welsh speakers. I'd say that the UK would be considerably
*less* stable if its minority languages were circumscribed on the Swiss
model.

That's more reasonable. Welsh gets no support in England. But it would
be perfectly legal to set up a Welsh-medium school in England if there
was local support and it gave a good education.

Thankyou.

It's not a great analogy, I agree, but that's the problem with being a
native English speaker. I suppose I'll have to substitute "an American
school", that being the only culture more *** than ours.

<snip>

I think you somewhat misunderstand the situation with regard to Welsh.
The Welsh language is probably in better shape now than it has been for
decades, largely thanks to bilingualism being encouraged. The next
census (in 2001) is expected to show an end to the decline in the
number of Welsh-speakers - possibly even a small increase. This is in
large part because of the huge increase in Welsh-medium schooling. In
fact, bilingualism is now compulsory in Welsh schools - every pupil
must learn Welsh *and* English from ages 5 to 16. This policy of
bilingualism is, in most areas, extremely popular. Making some
localities a "Welsh-only" zone would be a disaster.

Yes, but government through referendum does tend to lead to the
dictatorship of the majority, with smaller groups getting sidelined.
(That's by no means confined to Switzerland, I freely admit.)

I agree. It's just that I prefer the Welsh model to the Swiss one.
Looks like we'll have to agree to differ on that one.

--
David.
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

No, they were Kantonal documents from SO.  But it's true that  my driving
license here is German and French only, whereas my old GR license was German
and Italian (and perhaps even Romansch - I forget).

Actually, I found Geneva drab and lacking French character precisely because
it is such an international business town.

And reading this last paragraph has reminded me of what I really like about
USENET.  You have helped me to see some new things here and in fact change
my opinion somewhat.  I originally proposed that the various cultural groups
within Switzerland peacefully coexisted, when in fact I now see they just
ignore each other with the exception of certain border regions with no
distinct language ties.  Probably the reason it works here, and doesn't work
in Canada if we just tell Quebec to do what they want while remaining a part
of Canada, is that most regional hostilities were sorted out several hundred
years ago, with the lines of demarcation shifting around until the Swiss
finally agreed amongst themselves that "this is a French area" and "this is
a German area".  The bigger reason is probably that the government is much
more provincial in Switzerland, with little influence from the federal
government on day-to-day life.  Much more money is transferred from federal
to provincial governments in Canada, and this leads to resentment between
provinces.  With more policy decisions made at the federal level, there is
also resentment if there is the perception of preferential treatment.

Stephen

It is worth noting that the citizenship requirements are relaxing in
Switzerland.  This is a current topic in the newspapers.

Stephen

<snip>

If it ends up being the case, it is certainly good news.

This sounds similar to what is being done to revive French in Louisiana.
I hate to sound cynical, but isn't true that most of these measures
usually come once a language has been so battered that it's highly
unlikely it will ever again reach a point where engineers will use it to
draft plans for bridges, mechanics to change tires or doctors to perform
surgery?

Given the damage that's been done to Welsh in the UK, Breton in France
and French in Louisiana, current measures to promote these language are
politically innocuous, aren't they?

Well, the whole majority vs. minority issue in apartheid South Africa
was always a complex web, I'd say.

True that this is often the case.  I'd say that the Swiss tried to get
around this problem by massively decentralizing many powers to the
cantons.

Disagreements suit me just fine.  I find I don't learn half as much from
people who think the same way I do.

Marco A.

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In many areas of English Canada, promoting French (as has been done in
recent years) poses about as much of a threat to the established
English-only order as promoting Swahili in Iowa.

I suspect the same may be true of most Swiss cantons with respect to
minority languages.

This is true.  But it will be interesting to see what will happen if the
economic disparities continue to grow between the richer German-speaking
areas and the French and Italian zones.

Yes, but this is probably a result of long-standing policies that were
designed to foster that lack of interest.

This is a major difference between Canada and Switzerland.

Well, Montreal certainly has more character (both French and otherwise)
than Geneva, but I was just referring to the *** presence of French
in all aspects of life.  In my experience, people in shops in Geneva
will not spontaneously greet you in German or in English, which does
happen on occasion in Montreal.

The official line is that Swiss cantons are more homogenous
linguistically than the Canadian provinces.  Though thrown around quite
often in Canada, this is actually a fallacious argument.
Statistically-speaking, most Canadian provinces are "as English" as
Zurich or Basel cantons are German or the Vaud is French.  And Quebec is
"as French" as the Ticino is Italian and is even "more French" than the
canton of Geneva.

As you are probably aware, this was attempted during the Meech Lake
constitutional talks in Canada between 1985 and 1990.

True.  The Canadian way has been buying off provinces (especially
Quebec) rather than granting something resembling Swiss-style autonomy.

Marco A.

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Oops! Of course, I was referring to English rather than German in the
case of Montreal!

Marco A. (longing for the good old days of the Brasserie Vieux-Munich on
rue St-Denis...)

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<snip>
<snip>

I was going to leave this thread there, but I think I need to answer
this point. Welsh's position is far, *far* healthier than that of
French in Louisiana, and likely to remain so. About 20% of the Welsh
population speak it, but the distribution is very variable. In Gwynedd
in the north west, for example, it's well over 60%, and anyone applying
for a public sector job is required either to speak Welsh or to make a
commitment to learn it within two years. And they're expected to use
it regularly.

In Llangefni, for example (the county town of Anglesey, a large island
off the north-west coast for those that don't know), well over 80%
speak it, and it is used every day. And in that part of Wales, you *do*
hear people (including young people) using Welsh for ordering
takeaways, paying in cheques at the bank, and, yes, conversations
between mechanics changing tyres.

If you go to Caernarfon, the most Welsh-speaking large twon in Wales,
you will hear both English and Welsh. But the English mostly comes from
visitors - the majority of locals speak Welsh as a first language.
You'll hear a lot of Welsh spoken in the west of Wales - for example,
Bangor, Bala, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion (Cardiganshire as was) -
even as far east as Llandudno and Wrexham. In fact, in Ceredigion there
is now a successful bilingual *commercial* radio station (an important
point, as people tend to assume Welsh always needs state subsidy).

What I am trying to say is that Welsh *is* used as a first language
across a lot of Wales for mundane everyday tasks, such as those you
mention. Forty years ago, saying the language was dying was the
accepted view. Not any more - I'm pleased to say that the "Pisgodyn a
Sglodion" (Fish & Chips) signs are here to stay!

Slightly interesting fact no. 263546: the revival in Welsh is sometimes
traced to a radio speech on the subject given in 1962. Is this the only
time radio has rescued a language?
--
David.
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Stephen

And just to tenuously tie the Welsh thread to the Swiss threads together
(all sim racers groan), in the research lab I worked in for the last three
years, way up in the Eastern Swiss Alps in a town called Davos, we had quite
a mix of nationalities.  Three of the PhD students came from Wales, and
different parts of Wales.  All three spoke Welsh as their first language at
work (obviously only with each other).  Thay also spoke flawless English as
well, of course, but that's beside the point.  The point is that based on my
limited statistical sampling, I would be inclined to believe that 100% of
Welsh people between the ages of 20 and 26 speak Welsh.  :-)

Stephen