rec.autos.simulators

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

Carl Ribbegaard

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Carl Ribbegaard » Sun, 06 May 2001 20:51:21

Hotlapping at A1-ring, I was running using downloaded setups for Barcelona,
(dont remember who's, but in-game he calls himself B.OverDrive or something)
and my problem was locking up the frontwheels while trailbraking.

When I read your comments about applying gas beeing valid for not loosing
the rear, I moved the brakebias backwards, and it seems to work pretty good.

When I drove yesterday, my last lap was a decent 3/4 lap to gravelpit, but I
did drive _very_ smooth with brake and gas, just like gpl, and it did work
very good. Now I just need to cut 2,5 more seconds...

Thanks!

/Carl

(I think the F1RC physics is pretty gpl-like, just without the visual
chassis roll.)




> >Yesterday I tried using 55% rear, and quite much (about 1/2) throttle.
> >Runs quite OK. (but should I keep it there or am I way off?)

> [This bit was written thinking i was talking about GPL]

> Well, I should say first that I rarely run F1 these days as I just
> don't have the time. As I run in F2/FD leagues they take up
> most of my time.

> I personally never run more than 53% and often run as low as 50%.

> [This bit is not sim specific]

> You'd think that, as the rear wheels of the cars are wider, hence
> have more comparable grip, that the brake balance should be
> more rearward but in fact grip is not just a function of tire patch,
> it also has to do with weight being applied.

> Under braking the vast majority of the weight of the car is over the
> front wheels, so it actually works out that you need more front
> bias for even braking. Also, if you are ever to lockup under braking
> it's better that the fronts do rather than the rears.

> Anyway, as I said before, what we are doing by applying some
> gas is trying to move the weight that little bit further back, so we
> can benefit from those wider tires.

> In truth the main reason for doing this in real-life and to a large
> degree in sims is to prevent fishtailing under heavy braking.

> I'm still not sure whether you get improved BRAKING by
> having a little power on, I suspect not so much in real-life
> maybe the way the sim works means you do in the sim.

> What I am sure of in real-life and in GPL (thats about the
> only thing I run) is that you can brake harder without getting
> instability (i.e. fishtailing).

> The reason for this is that what is happening under very
> heavy brakes is that there is so much weight forward that
> there is very little grip at all at the rear, any slight twitch by the
> driver, as an effect of camber settings or uneven tire temps
> etc. can cause "a moment" which will often mean the driver
> will brake less hard the next time around.

> The whole braking dynamic changes with Aero cars, as
> the slower you go the less grip you have (as the aero
> downforce decreases), so in real-life you  have to ease back on
> the brake.

> I doubt that this level of modelling is done in any of the
> current crop of modern F1 sims so I wouldn't get too concerned
> yet.

> >I'm just behind the 1:08 cars to the 2'nd 90deg turn at A1-ring.
> >There I loose much grounds while accelerating.
> >I did 1:10:999 best.

> I wouldnt try and guage my driving by any measure of
> the AI, in any sim. The AI will IMO not be running the same physics
> as your car. Certainly this is the case with GPL and I would have
> thought that all sims would use a rather simplified model.

> I could be wrong, my only real experience is with GPL.

> >> I've used this myself in single seaters, specifically Formual Ford,
> >> Vauxhall Junior and Vauxhall Lotus but more for it's other benefit
> >> of stabilising the car under heavy braking. With very little weight
> >> on the rears any inblance in the car is likely to "wag the tail".

> >I often loose the rear end in very tight corners,
> >like 1st, 2nd at A1 ring, and the tight right-downwards turn at
Nurburgring.

> The most common cause of losing the rear is not providing
> a balanced throttle through the corners.

> The gas and brake pedals are somewhat more useful than just
> accelerating and braking the car, they are in fact "tire grip"
> modifiers. In general the brake will add front end grip, the gas
> pedal (up to a degree) will add rear grip.

> What you therefore need during most cornering is a balanced
> throttle, neither accel not decell, which will keep more weight
> over the rear tires, giving you more grip, hence no spin.

> Modern F1 sims don't really allow you to expericence this
> delicate balance but in GPL, to go quickly you will be sliding
> through every corner. You "control" that slide by very slight
> variations in throttle application, sometimes brake but not so
> often.

> >I think I'll practice not letting go of the throttle.

> >How about setups?
> >What is most beneficial to poke with, if I drive 'pushing' in long
corners,
> >and use 'trottle-braking'?
> >I find thight corners and accelerating the biggest problem.

> Cant help you with F1RC, AFAIK there are these "magic" techniques that
> work with modern F1 sims that are not what would work or be practiced
> in real-life. But I can't help you with those I'm afraid as I don't
> run them.

> I think that if you view the application of gas as a means to
> stabilise the car under heavy braking and use no more than say 20-30%
> and more at the end of braking than at the beginning (for an aero car)
> you would be doing something with some validity in real-life.

> >Thank you for your excellent explanations!

> Your welcome. I hope I've not gone overboard with the above, but
> it's interesting stuff.

> >/Carl

Carl Ribbegaard

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Carl Ribbegaard » Sun, 06 May 2001 20:53:02

What kind of truck?
Sounds like not-so-much rear grip.

/Carl


> I wish I could post some of my telemetry displays on corners with throttle
> and brake pressure Front and rear...I mean the REAL telemetry, not from a
> game but from my truck....Trust me on this guys, you CAN brake and almost
> floor the throttle to avoid losing the rear.





> > >In real life it is NOT used if you change down gears, and it KILLS
> clutches.

> > OK, I'll bite, I've resisted long enough ...

> > Attendance at a Racing School does not make one an expert on the
> > techniques used in real-life racing. I don't consider myself an expert
> > either but after dozens of real life races in various chassis and
> > formulas, the best part of 3 years working as an instructor and
> > having spent 100s of hours with some of the worlds top drivers
> > discussing technique I can state categorically that IT IS USED in
> > real racing.

> > As to why, when and where it is used and it's level of modelling
> > in sims I covered this here some time ago. If anyones interested
> > I will dig it out and repost.

> > Maxx

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Sun, 06 May 2001 23:09:25


perhaps... but now they're saying he slowed because of what happened with
rubens... that's one thing i hate about F1, they're so damn secretive

KK

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Sun, 06 May 2001 23:12:42


2.5 seconds???

setup shouldn't find you more than 1!! there's something very wrong with
your driving :)

KK

Asbj?rn Bj?rnst

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Asbj?rn Bj?rnst » Sun, 06 May 2001 23:15:02




> >In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and
> >quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and
> >keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you
> >are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do
> >that in real life')

> I'm not sure I fully understand that. Certainly you are not altering
> the brake bias, that is fixed in GPL Most formula cars in real-life
> do have***pit brake-bias adjusters however.

I'm no race engineer, but how I see it is that you alter the brake
bias by making the rear brakes work against the engine. This will
reduce the amount of work they can do against the track surface
and in effect move the brake bias forward. (Since the rears gets
less effective.)

Now, this I don't understand. The weight shift is a result of the
(negative) accelration, right? How can providing power to the
rear wheels alter the weight balence except by reducing the effect
of the brakes (see above) so that you don't slow down as quickly?
--
  -asbjxrn                   Consultant, n.:
                                    An ordinary man a long way from home.

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Sun, 06 May 2001 23:36:01


the torque produced by a wheel under power in effect forces the wheel to
want to move up the suspension forcing the car's rear end to squat under
acceleration.... that results in more traction. the principle is the same

KK

Carl Ribbegaard

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Carl Ribbegaard » Mon, 07 May 2001 00:40:49

Sorry but I don't understand what you are saying?

/Carl

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Mon, 07 May 2001 12:02:47


why are you trying to find 2.5s? is that the pace of the cars you're racing?
or are you trying to beat someone's hot lap?

KK

Carl Ribbegaard

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Carl Ribbegaard » Mon, 07 May 2001 19:55:29

Until I can upload a hotlap to bhmotorsports ;-)
I'm right now running at 1:10.999 on A1-Ring. I've got 2.729 more seconds up
to Luka Zagoricnik's time. (think I can manage that with some more practice
on the later part of the course)

/Carl




> > Sorry but I don't understand what you are saying?

> why are you trying to find 2.5s? is that the pace of the cars you're
racing?
> or are you trying to beat someone's hot lap?

> KK

Jonny Hodgso

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Jonny Hodgso » Mon, 07 May 2001 19:47:18




> > Now, this I don't understand. The weight shift is a result of the
> > (negative) accelration, right? How can providing power to the
> > rear wheels alter the weight balence except by reducing the effect
> > of the brakes (see above) so that you don't slow down as quickly?

> the torque produced by a wheel under power in effect forces the wheel to
> want to move up the suspension forcing the car's rear end to squat under
> acceleration.... that results in more traction. the principle is the same

No, Asbjxrn's 100% right.  Squat and dive effects have nothing to do
with weight transfer except during the split second during which they
actually happen.  In steady state (under braking) it depends purely on
CG height, wheelbase and rate of deceleration.

The 'power against brakes' thing, like rapid/early downshifting, is a
way of altering the brake balance under driver control during the
course of a 'stop' (which is highly desirable if you've got the skill
to do it!)

Jonny

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Mon, 07 May 2001 22:46:09


which physics and performance updates? and are you doing realistic laps.. as
in, reproducible for 100% race distance without destroying suspension/car or
copping penalties for missing corners?  :)

i never tinker with the setup myself... i always drive with the standard
setups... keeps me close the rest of the cars

KK

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Mon, 07 May 2001 22:52:24


ah.. now i see....

but from the way i'm picturing it... the only way to transfer brake balance
from rear to front is if the fronts aren't working optimally to begin
with.... the same effect could in essence be had with brake bias set to
match your driving technique (assuming you can brake the same way
reproducibly)

KK

Txl

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Txl » Tue, 08 May 2001 01:23:37

1400 hp and 5000 Nm torque....that's the problem



> What kind of truck?
> Sounds like not-so-much rear grip.

> /Carl



> > I wish I could post some of my telemetry displays on corners with
throttle
> > and brake pressure Front and rear...I mean the REAL telemetry, not from
a
> > game but from my truck....Trust me on this guys, you CAN brake and
almost
> > floor the throttle to avoid losing the rear.





> > > >In real life it is NOT used if you change down gears, and it KILLS
> > clutches.

> > > OK, I'll bite, I've resisted long enough ...

> > > Attendance at a Racing School does not make one an expert on the
> > > techniques used in real-life racing. I don't consider myself an expert
> > > either but after dozens of real life races in various chassis and
> > > formulas, the best part of 3 years working as an instructor and
> > > having spent 100s of hours with some of the worlds top drivers
> > > discussing technique I can state categorically that IT IS USED in
> > > real racing.

> > > As to why, when and where it is used and it's level of modelling
> > > in sims I covered this here some time ago. If anyones interested
> > > I will dig it out and repost.

> > > Maxx

Jonny Hodgso

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Jonny Hodgso » Tue, 08 May 2001 02:19:50




> > The 'power against brakes' thing, like rapid/early downshifting, is a
> > way of altering the brake balance under driver control during the
> > course of a 'stop' (which is highly desirable if you've got the skill
> > to do it!)
> but from the way i'm picturing it... the only way to transfer brake
balance
> from rear to front is if the fronts aren't working optimally to begin
> with.... the same effect could in essence be had with brake bias set to
> match your driving technique (assuming you can brake the same way
> reproducibly)

Definitely.  The advantage is when you might want different brake balance
at different times - with a high-downforce car, you can stand much more
rearwards brake bias at the beginning of a stop, while the downforce is
still there; without wings, I suppose tyre temps make a difference (you
get more weight transfer once the tyres warm up) and perhaps there
are times when you actually *want* the brakes too far back, to help
turn-in for instance, but then use power to keep the car straight initially.

Jonny

Kasper Kowalsk

Driving Technique for F1RC? Need to cut seconds...

by Kasper Kowalsk » Tue, 08 May 2001 03:18:22


initially.

but if you're like me, and prefer to turn in while braking it would be
asking for trouble... i have enough trouble keeping the rear from snapping
out without trying to move brake bias around as well :)


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