rec.autos.simulators

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

Tom Pabs

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Tom Pabs » Fri, 21 Sep 2001 04:47:54

Hi Guys....

I am having some fun doing a little GPL track editing again (haven't done
this stuff for over a year) and I have some general questions for the GPL
editing community...and/or anyone with answers (...lol...).  Currently, I'm
working on creating a properly colored "Fall Colors" version of the original
GPL Watkins Glen......just to sort of "grease my wheels" in this type of
work again.  I'm quite impressed with some of the track editing work I've
seen recently.....and the fast computers we now have allow a lot more
"creativity" than I was allowed a couple years back (and more).  I have also
acquired some tools for Viper Racing......and I will be creating a "race car
***pit" for the GTS-R Viper.....I'll post its availability here if and when
I can create something worth downloading.  I am amazed how many people are
still running VR.......!

Here's my questions:

1.  Where's the best "Forum" for mixing with tech-types on GPL track
editing?  Is there a Forum where everyone that does some track editing
gathers, gets technical problems discussed, share information, etc.?  Or, is
that community divided by the racing sim they work on?  I have no
clue....these Forums didn't exist when I was actively track editing
(although Alison Hine had tried to start an email-type Forum among the track
editors).

2.  I am planning to purchase either 3dsMax 4 or MultiGen (with Road
Builder).  Which is the most versatile....anyone using these currently
outside of the game developers?  Any recommendations (game developer tech,
or private)?  ["Yes," I do know how much they cost.]

These questions are regarding GPL track editing specifically.........

3.  I want to figure out what my new "pixel budget" would be for a GF3 video
card running on a 1.x Gig AMD platform (or a high-end Pentium platform).
I'm assuming that even with this kind of computing power, there is some
"limit" to the total mip textures the video card loads (and the CPU
processes) for a track, that will begin to severely hit the FPS.  How do I
figure out what that "new" limit is for a GF3, 1.x Gig CPU system?  If I can
accurately determine (or estimate with some reasonable level of accuracy)
the total mip texture limit for a track.....then I can allocate the
"high-res" textures accordingly (to those mips with more
"presence"......creating lower-res mips for the less obvious textures....all
from the standpoint of the view from the***pit).  What's the process/steps
necessary to make this calculation?  I have some "good guesses" on how to do
this....but I thought I'd just ask.....why try to "reinvent the wheel"....?

4.  Does the mapping instruction for a texture exist in the track.3do?
Where is it in the 3do for the track surface.......and can this be edited
with a simple text editor?  Or how can this be edited?  Specifically, I'm
interested in altering the mapping for the track surface texture so that if
it tiles the surface texture mip, to change the tiling so it places mirror
images of the texture side by side.  Most of the GPL tracks map two sets of
the surface texture side by side across the width of the track....but not in
mirror images.  This prevents creating  light and dark track surface shading
between the middle and edges of the track.  Some GPL tracks do "mirror" the
surface texture....so I know this can be done (Noonan's RoadA track for
example).

5.  Does the horizon.3do specifically control the horizon panels (page03.mip
and page03b.mip) independent of the track.3do, and nothing else?  Has anyone
tried adding panels, subtracting panels, or changing the resolution of the
existing panels?  In my opinion, one of the biggest weaknesses of the
original Papy GPL tracks is the incorrect scaling of the horizon
textures......its just not realistic (although I can understand the need for
it being done the way Papy did it....because of the GPL minimum specs
issues) on many of the tracks (but not all).

That's it for now....if I can locate a good track editing Forum.....I'll
take further questions of a tech nature on this topic there.  But, I
couldn't think of a way to avoid asking these questions here.....sorry for
those of you who have no interest in this topic.  Thanks for your patience
on this long post.

I have been really impressed with some of the GPL track and car editing work
I've observed in the last week or so since I sort of took up this "hobby
activity" again.  It looks like we might eventually see the end of the days
where we are all forced to race on fluorescent colored simulation
tracks......bright colors and shades more appropriate for arcade consoles in
a bar and/or comic books.....not realistic racing simulations.  The only
thing bright and fluorescent at a real-world race track on race
day........is the crowds, the sponsor signage and the race cars.  Everything
else is muted and subdued in tone and luminescence......it will be nice to
have those kinds of tracks (and cars) to sim race with....its long overdue
(IMHO).  Perhaps Chris and Tony West will have left a legacy to this sim
racing community (whether they ever release WSC or not).....their track
screen shots and race cars are absolutely the best....spectacular work of
creating real-world imagery in a racing simulation.  I believe their work
has inspired others........"thank you - Chris and Tony West!"

Wouldn't it be great if Papy could "tear a page" from Chris and Tony's
inspirational work and finally get the grass color down out of the
"luminescent ozone layer" for N5?  Man, that would be great!  [N4 is a vast
improvement over N3 and N2.....but that fluorescent green grass
color....along with some others.....just makes me gag!  I don't understand
why they continue to do this?]

Thanks for allowing my "rambling" on this topic.....

Regards,

Tom

sudes

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by sudes » Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:41:29

wow, why is everybody working on Watkins Glen all of a sudden?
16 bit textures etc......
go here for editing forums i guess

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~bi-knu/editing/

Sudesh

Phil Le

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Phil Le » Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:12:06


There is already an update for fall colours for the Glen.  You can get read
about it here:

http://www.legendscentral.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=...
0098

I am of course rather biased but I reckon that the best editing forum is the
one that I host for the GPLEA at Legends Central.  It is where all the GPLEA
guys hang out to answer questions on track editing and the GPLEA editing
tools.

You can reach it directly at:

http://www.legendscentral.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=7

or vist my site at the link below.

I'm afraid I can;t answer your other questions but the gurus who hang out in
the editing forum, including the original Guru, Phil Flack, certainly will
be able to.

Cheers

Phil Lee

Legends Central Webmaster
http://www.legendscentral.com

Michael Barlo

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Michael Barlo » Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:08:04

    Forget about the Old Watkins Glen,  there's too many out there.  Start
working on the one **with the boot**!!

    Sooner or later I'll get my prize ;-)

--
Michael A. Barlow
FILSCA (www.filsca.com)

> wow, why is everybody working on Watkins Glen all of a sudden?
> 16 bit textures etc......
> go here for editing forums i guess

> http://www.racesimcentral.net/~bi-knu/editing/

> Sudesh


> > Hi Guys....

> > I am having some fun doing a little GPL track editing again (haven't
done
> > this stuff for over a year) and I have some general questions for the
GPL
> > editing community...and/or anyone with answers (...lol...).  Currently,
> I'm
> > working on creating a properly colored "Fall Colors" version of the
> original
> > GPL Watkins Glen......just to sort of "grease my wheels" in this type of
> > work again.  I'm quite impressed with some of the track editing work
I've
> > seen recently.....and the fast computers we now have allow a lot more
> > "creativity" than I was allowed a couple years back (and more).  I have
> also
> > acquired some tools for Viper Racing......and I will be creating a "race
> car
> >***pit" for the GTS-R Viper.....I'll post its availability here if and
> when
> > I can create something worth downloading.  I am amazed how many people
are
> > still running VR.......!

> > Here's my questions:

> > 1.  Where's the best "Forum" for mixing with tech-types on GPL track
> > editing?  Is there a Forum where everyone that does some track editing
> > gathers, gets technical problems discussed, share information, etc.?
Or,
> is
> > that community divided by the racing sim they work on?  I have no
> > clue....these Forums didn't exist when I was actively track editing
> > (although Alison Hine had tried to start an email-type Forum among the
> track
> > editors).

> > 2.  I am planning to purchase either 3dsMax 4 or MultiGen (with Road
> > Builder).  Which is the most versatile....anyone using these currently
> > outside of the game developers?  Any recommendations (game developer
tech,
> > or private)?  ["Yes," I do know how much they cost.]

> > These questions are regarding GPL track editing specifically.........

> > 3.  I want to figure out what my new "pixel budget" would be for a GF3
> video
> > card running on a 1.x Gig AMD platform (or a high-end Pentium platform).
> > I'm assuming that even with this kind of computing power, there is some
> > "limit" to the total mip textures the video card loads (and the CPU
> > processes) for a track, that will begin to severely hit the FPS.  How do
I
> > figure out what that "new" limit is for a GF3, 1.x Gig CPU system?  If I
> can
> > accurately determine (or estimate with some reasonable level of
accuracy)
> > the total mip texture limit for a track.....then I can allocate the
> > "high-res" textures accordingly (to those mips with more
> > "presence"......creating lower-res mips for the less obvious
> textures....all
> > from the standpoint of the view from the***pit).  What's the
> process/steps
> > necessary to make this calculation?  I have some "good guesses" on how
to
> do
> > this....but I thought I'd just ask.....why try to "reinvent the
> wheel"....?

> > 4.  Does the mapping instruction for a texture exist in the track.3do?
> > Where is it in the 3do for the track surface.......and can this be
edited
> > with a simple text editor?  Or how can this be edited?  Specifically,
I'm
> > interested in altering the mapping for the track surface texture so that
> if
> > it tiles the surface texture mip, to change the tiling so it places
mirror
> > images of the texture side by side.  Most of the GPL tracks map two sets
> of
> > the surface texture side by side across the width of the track....but
not
> in
> > mirror images.  This prevents creating  light and dark track surface
> shading
> > between the middle and edges of the track.  Some GPL tracks do "mirror"
> the
> > surface texture....so I know this can be done (Noonan's RoadA track for
> > example).

> > 5.  Does the horizon.3do specifically control the horizon panels
> (page03.mip
> > and page03b.mip) independent of the track.3do, and nothing else?  Has
> anyone
> > tried adding panels, subtracting panels, or changing the resolution of
the
> > existing panels?  In my opinion, one of the biggest weaknesses of the
> > original Papy GPL tracks is the incorrect scaling of the horizon
> > textures......its just not realistic (although I can understand the need
> for
> > it being done the way Papy did it....because of the GPL minimum specs
> > issues) on many of the tracks (but not all).

> > That's it for now....if I can locate a good track editing Forum.....I'll
> > take further questions of a tech nature on this topic there.  But, I
> > couldn't think of a way to avoid asking these questions here.....sorry
for
> > those of you who have no interest in this topic.  Thanks for your
patience
> > on this long post.

> > I have been really impressed with some of the GPL track and car editing
> work
> > I've observed in the last week or so since I sort of took up this "hobby
> > activity" again.  It looks like we might eventually see the end of the
> days
> > where we are all forced to race on fluorescent colored simulation
> > tracks......bright colors and shades more appropriate for arcade
consoles
> in
> > a bar and/or comic books.....not realistic racing simulations.  The only
> > thing bright and fluorescent at a real-world race track on race
> > day........is the crowds, the sponsor signage and the race cars.
> Everything
> > else is muted and subdued in tone and luminescence......it will be nice
to
> > have those kinds of tracks (and cars) to sim race with....its long
overdue
> > (IMHO).  Perhaps Chris and Tony West will have left a legacy to this sim
> > racing community (whether they ever release WSC or not).....their track
> > screen shots and race cars are absolutely the best....spectacular work
of
> > creating real-world imagery in a racing simulation.  I believe their
work
> > has inspired others........"thank you - Chris and Tony West!"

> > Wouldn't it be great if Papy could "tear a page" from Chris and Tony's
> > inspirational work and finally get the grass color down out of the
> > "luminescent ozone layer" for N5?  Man, that would be great!  [N4 is a
> vast
> > improvement over N3 and N2.....but that fluorescent green grass
> > color....along with some others.....just makes me gag!  I don't
understand
> > why they continue to do this?]

> > Thanks for allowing my "rambling" on this topic.....

> > Regards,

> > Tom

Rafe McAulif

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Rafe McAulif » Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:22:18

Hey Tom, while you're in editing mode, you should do some "rounded
knuckles" hehehe.

Seriously, those arms need some decent textures :)

Rafe Mc



Tapani Kaijanm?k

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Tapani Kaijanm?k » Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:22:16

hi,
altitudes from monza 2001:
http://www.monzanet.it/pista/altline.jpg
use it as a new track (or don't),
tapani
Kevin F. Gavit

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Kevin F. Gavit » Sat, 22 Sep 2001 05:11:28




>> Hi Guys....

>> I am having some fun doing a little GPL track editing again (haven't done
>> this stuff for over a year) and I have some general questions for the GPL
>> editing community...and/or anyone with answers (...lol...).  Currently,
> I'm
>> working on creating a properly colored "Fall Colors" version of the
> original
>> GPL Watkins Glen......just to sort of "grease my wheels" in this type of
>> work again.

> There is already an update for fall colours for the Glen.  You can get
> read about it here:

http://www.legendscentral.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=...

- Show quoted text -

And it's stunning, although it seems to be set near sunset. Most stunning
time of the day though.

It could still use some tweaking, at least according to this local
resident. The grass, for instance, is too yellow. The tress are perfect,
just the right mix of colors and those that havn't turned yet, but the
GRASS in early October is actually quite green. Greener than in August.
Grass likes it cool and wet, like October is, and actually stages a
"comeback" in the early fall and keeps getting greener and lusher at least
until first frost.

KFG

Tom Pabs

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:38:12

Rafe....

You mean like this?

http://www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/PRhands-1.jpg

I would love it (along with everyone else) if someone would create an
improved 3D object for the GPL driver arms.  I don't do that
stuff....too much math and algebra, calculus....that sort of boring
stuff.  I only do art! .....lol.....

Tom -:)

Dave Henri

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Dave Henri » Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:49:17


  oohhhh  (backing away from monitor and cleaning off the drool)  round
knuckles....:)
Actually that looks pretty good.  I wonder what kind of framerate we would
have gotten back when GPL was released with textures like those  ?
dave henrie

Rafe McAulif

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Rafe McAulif » Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:22:54

That does look very cool. Now if someone in the know had enough spare
time on their hands...We'd all be pretty grateful I'm sure.

Rafe Mc



Colin Frenc

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Colin Frenc » Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:57:14


Har, har, har - good pun (even if it was unintentional).

            ...Klinn

Dave Pollatse

Track Editing and Updates - Questions

by Dave Pollatse » Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:59:24

As a programmer, I only have "over the shoulder" knowledge for actually
using these two, but here's my take:
We are still using Multigen Creator for tracks and 3DS Max 3 for cars...
Multigen has very good database management, and the program doesn't hide the
internal data base structure the way Max does, so you can really organize
your scene database in any way you want, with LOD information, switch nodes,
etc.  If you want new types of information in the track, you can just add
new nodes with new names.  Of course, it's expensive and somewhat
buggy/resource hogging, but on the plus side you get more personal tech
support.  Unlike MAX, which is still oriented towards non-realtime rendering
with exporting to games as more of an afterthought, Multigen is designed
expressly for exporting to custom realtime rendering engines, such as
military simulators.  They also have a road tools plugin.

MAX seems to be better at editing individual models, has fancier mesh
support, and is more "mainstream".  It's also better for boned animation.
However, you usually end up having to write a custom exporter plugin,
because their own 3DS exporter is broken for many cases and their .MAX file
format is undocumented, unlike the Openflight format of Multigen.  We
implemented a car deformation system using bones on our Xbox Heat, and
getting the bone weights out of MAX was a real headache.  We just received
MAX 4, and we'll see how that is--their game-oriented stuff has been
improving over the last several revs, such as allowing you to actually edit
the texture coordinates directly (In Viper (MAX 2 era) I had to write a
custom tool to do texture mapping, so we we did the modeling in MAX and the
texturing in a hokey editor within the debug version of the game.)  I had
heard from other developers who used MAX for their scene management that it
would start to really have problems with large scenes, but that information
is a few years old and may not apply to the newest MAX versions.

A lot of developers are very excited about Maya, and we would like to
investigate what the strengths and weaknesses of this product are, but of
course there is a cost to us to switch tool mid project... basically both
Multigen and MAX have great feature and irritating qualities, and I think
it's because even MAX still has a small enough user base that these packages
will never be as polished as a true mass market application like Photoshop.
I think Multigen is much nicer for the programmers--MAX plugins can be
pretty iritating to write because every new modeling option the artist uses
seems to break the plugin and require a couple hours of digging around the
MAX SDK...  for all I know Maya may be the next sliced bread, but I'm
guessing it'll do some things great and fall down on others.
All of our track artists used 3DS MAX prior to working here, but after
they've been working with Multigen for a few years, they don't want to
switch back.  Obviously, we don't do any GPL editing around here, so I don't
know exactly how these products would perform for that task--it seems like
most 4th party modellers use MAX.
Good luck making your choice!

-Dave Pollatsek
 MGI

(Wow, this post ended up being nearly "Tom Pabst"-class in length).

"Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:KD6q7.23022$L%5.18272933@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
> Hi Guys....

> I am having some fun doing a little GPL track editing again (haven't done
> this stuff for over a year) and I have some general questions for the GPL
> editing community...and/or anyone with answers (...lol...).  Currently,
I'm
> working on creating a properly colored "Fall Colors" version of the
original
> GPL Watkins Glen......just to sort of "grease my wheels" in this type of
> work again.  I'm quite impressed with some of the track editing work I've
> seen recently.....and the fast computers we now have allow a lot more
> "creativity" than I was allowed a couple years back (and more).  I have
also
> acquired some tools for Viper Racing......and I will be creating a "race
car
> cockpit" for the GTS-R Viper.....I'll post its availability here if and
when
> I can create something worth downloading.  I am amazed how many people are
> still running VR.......!

> Here's my questions:

> 1.  Where's the best "Forum" for mixing with tech-types on GPL track
> editing?  Is there a Forum where everyone that does some track editing
> gathers, gets technical problems discussed, share information, etc.?  Or,
is
> that community divided by the racing sim they work on?  I have no
> clue....these Forums didn't exist when I was actively track editing
> (although Alison Hine had tried to start an email-type Forum among the
track
> editors).

> 2.  I am planning to purchase either 3dsMax 4 or MultiGen (with Road
> Builder).  Which is the most versatile....anyone using these currently
> outside of the game developers?  Any recommendations (game developer tech,
> or private)?  ["Yes," I do know how much they cost.]

> These questions are regarding GPL track editing specifically.........

> 3.  I want to figure out what my new "pixel budget" would be for a GF3
video
> card running on a 1.x Gig AMD platform (or a high-end Pentium platform).
> I'm assuming that even with this kind of computing power, there is some
> "limit" to the total mip textures the video card loads (and the CPU
> processes) for a track, that will begin to severely hit the FPS.  How do I
> figure out what that "new" limit is for a GF3, 1.x Gig CPU system?  If I
can
> accurately determine (or estimate with some reasonable level of accuracy)
> the total mip texture limit for a track.....then I can allocate the
> "high-res" textures accordingly (to those mips with more
> "presence"......creating lower-res mips for the less obvious
textures....all
> from the standpoint of the view from the cockpit).  What's the
process/steps
> necessary to make this calculation?  I have some "good guesses" on how to
do
> this....but I thought I'd just ask.....why try to "reinvent the
wheel"....?

> 4.  Does the mapping instruction for a texture exist in the track.3do?
> Where is it in the 3do for the track surface.......and can this be edited
> with a simple text editor?  Or how can this be edited?  Specifically, I'm
> interested in altering the mapping for the track surface texture so that
if
> it tiles the surface texture mip, to change the tiling so it places mirror
> images of the texture side by side.  Most of the GPL tracks map two sets
of
> the surface texture side by side across the width of the track....but not
in
> mirror images.  This prevents creating  light and dark track surface
shading
> between the middle and edges of the track.  Some GPL tracks do "mirror"
the
> surface texture....so I know this can be done (Noonan's RoadA track for
> example).

> 5.  Does the horizon.3do specifically control the horizon panels
(page03.mip
> and page03b.mip) independent of the track.3do, and nothing else?  Has
anyone
> tried adding panels, subtracting panels, or changing the resolution of the
> existing panels?  In my opinion, one of the biggest weaknesses of the
> original Papy GPL tracks is the incorrect scaling of the horizon
> textures......its just not realistic (although I can understand the need
for
> it being done the way Papy did it....because of the GPL minimum specs
> issues) on many of the tracks (but not all).

> That's it for now....if I can locate a good track editing Forum.....I'll
> take further questions of a tech nature on this topic there.  But, I
> couldn't think of a way to avoid asking these questions here.....sorry for
> those of you who have no interest in this topic.  Thanks for your patience
> on this long post.

> I have been really impressed with some of the GPL track and car editing
work
> I've observed in the last week or so since I sort of took up this "hobby
> activity" again.  It looks like we might eventually see the end of the
days
> where we are all forced to race on fluorescent colored simulation
> tracks......bright colors and shades more appropriate for arcade consoles
in
> a bar and/or comic books.....not realistic racing simulations.  The only
> thing bright and fluorescent at a real-world race track on race
> day........is the crowds, the sponsor signage and the race cars.
Everything
> else is muted and subdued in tone and luminescence......it will be nice to
> have those kinds of tracks (and cars) to sim race with....its long overdue
> (IMHO).  Perhaps Chris and Tony West will have left a legacy to this sim
> racing community (whether they ever release WSC or not).....their track
> screen shots and race cars are absolutely the best....spectacular work of
> creating real-world imagery in a racing simulation.  I believe their work
> has inspired others........"thank you - Chris and Tony West!"

> Wouldn't it be great if Papy could "tear a page" from Chris and Tony's
> inspirational work and finally get the grass color down out of the
> "luminescent ozone layer" for N5?  Man, that would be great!  [N4 is a
vast
> improvement over N3 and N2.....but that fluorescent green grass
> color....along with some others.....just makes me gag!  I don't understand
> why they continue to do this?]

> Thanks for allowing my "rambling" on this topic.....

> Regards,

> Tom


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