rec.autos.simulators

by **Marc Collin** » Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:00:00

That makes sense... Do you have any idea what other things could cause the
jittering? My system is configured perfectly with no hardware or software
conflicts of any kind...and I don't even have a modem in my machine!

Marc.

>Yes, I think that the pot can't report jitering values when you DON'T even
move
>the wheel. It must be controller's fault imo.

>> It would fuc*** figure if it was my SB PCI 128 (Ensoniq) contributing to
>> this problem. The ***y card has so many sound related and driver
problems
>> already.... God, I would like to shoot CL over this one. I don't even
have
>> room in my system for a dedicated game port, so I don't know what to
think.
>> I find it very hard to believe, though, that three pots. (two from TM and
>> one "independent") all have exactly the same faults.

>> I only switched to the 128 a few months back...and probably presumed that
>> the shaking was just my old original pot. starting to go. Now it makes
>> sense that it is the sound card's game port causing the problem since it
>> happens consistently even after a major overhaul of the wheel parts.

>> AARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>> ...but thanks for the helpful tip!!

>> Marc.

>> >>Well, I just replaced the second TM pot. with one from an electronics
>> >store.
>> >>It looks to be a bit sturdier, but the effect is the same as the first
two
>> >>from TM--still twitchy!!!! I suppose I could try to find a very high
>> >>quality pot., but first I'd love to know if there is anything else that
>> can
>> >>cause the twitchiness--other than a dirty or failing potentiometer.

>> >>Marc.

>> >I'm not so sure that it's just a Thrustmaster potentiometer problem. I
have
>> >an Ensoniq PCI 64 soundcard and I get twitchy steering with both a brand
>> new
>> >Gravis Xterminator gamepad and an old T2 wheel.

>> >I've tried a lot of things to fix this problem - moving cards around
inside
>> >my comp, new drivers, poll with interrupts on and off, directx 5, 6, 6.1
>> >beta, blah blah and it still happens.

>> >Call me paranoid but I'm sure that "the shakes" are much more likely to
>> >happen when there are other cars near me on the track i.e. a lot of
noise.

>> >I'm willing to try anything to fix this problem. A gamecard, a new
steering
>> >wheel, a new soundcard and a test for mad cow disease are all options
I'm
>> >considering.

>> >Andy.

by **Marc Collin** » Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:00:00

See Sam's message above...bad news!

Marc.

by **Sam Seni** » Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:00:00

On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:30:13 -0500, "Marc Collins"

>You mean your Thomas wheel also "jitters" in GPL (or other sims.)?
>Uninstall sound card--my game port is on the sound card...could you
>elaborate as to what the supposed benefit of this process is?

>You don't suppose it could be a problem with GPL do you???????????

>Thanks.

>Marc.

Ans. to Marc: Yes, have jitter with TSW. Shaking arms. When I
installed dedicated Gameport, PDPI L4, the jitter in the calibrations
went away. The calibrations are rock-solid steady, now. But the arms
still jitter, and what's worse, the cars in GPL have become more
eratic. The soundcard item: When you install a game port, there may
still be mini-drivers in the soundcard software which "booger" the
contoller operation. It has been suggested by Jake that if you remove
the soundcard, physically, and its software, after you install the
Gameport (PDPI, in my case) and then re-install it, (for the sound)
your machine will recognize that the gameport takes precedence and
will function properly. I am going to try this. Jake, apologies if I
made any errors. If it works for me, I will post. By the way, that guy
cutting low 127's at Monza doesn't DESERVE any inprovement! :-) Sam

by **Sam Seni** » Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:00:00

OOPS! I was calling the PDPI a soundcard. It is, of course, a
GAMECARD, not a soundcard. Sorry for confusion. I have a photographic
memory, but I'm not getting SAME DAY SERVICE, any more! Sam

by **Andrew Middleto** » Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Just for the record, my Windows calibration screen is also rock solid - the
jitters are only occuring in GPL.

Hopefully we are getting somewhere with this because I'd love to be able to
pin it down. It looks as though a gamecard isn't going to solve it.

Andy.

P.S. would a Michael J.Fox joke about this problem be in bad taste ?

by **Legio** » Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:00:00

I'm not convinced that the MS FF pedals would justify the purchase. Seems
like the hardware driver would be designed to utilize feedback that even
when not utilized may slightly impair the controller's
bandwidth/responsiveness..and what about centering..even a bungy cord would
be better than a FF wheel with centering off. I've never used an FF wheel so
I could be way off base here.

>Hey Graeme

>Those times are not just competitive, there great!
>Maybe I ought to check into this wheel. One question - how comfortable are
>the pedals for long sessions? I have long legs and some of the pedals have
>an upright position which I find awkard. For me, the pedals make the
>difference in a wheel. The MS FF pedals look promising but the price is
high
>considering that I don't care about FF.
>Any input?

>Doug

>>>Thrustmaster uses very inexpensve pots
>>>(translate to low quality) which makes their controllers unfit for GPL if
>>>you want to be competitive.
>>I'm not sure if that's true, I use a TM "Formula 1" (NASCAR Pro)
>>wheel/pedal set and I like to think I'm pretty competitive - 1m27.9 at
>>Monza, 1m04.3 at Watkins, 1m20.0 at Kyalami etc etc and I think I am
>>also the current leader of the IGPS GPL series (I have to wait until the
>>Spa results are updated to be sure).
>>I've had the thing since September and have had no problems with it at
>>all.

>>Cheers!
>>Graeme Nash

>>http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
>>ICQ# 11257824

>>1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

by **Ian Parke** » Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:00:00

I have a new P II 333 with a vortex A3D soundcard and had exactly the same
problem when using my TM F1 wheel, (brand new, first one broke :-( ), using
the Microsoft Sidewinder standard joystick the jittering reduced
considerably, but was still apparent.
Both of these controllers worked fine with my old Compaq P166mmx with
onboard soundcard / gameport so I presume that the problem is not with the
wheel or j/stick, or even with GPL because I also had problems in F1 RS and
MGPRS2 where the car looked as though it was juddering down the road.
I spoke to Thrustmaster's technical helpline in the UK and they said that
it may be a speed issue between the PC and soundcard.
The resistance of the pots in the thrustmaster wheel are higher than the
Microsoft stick and the resistance also increases when turning the steering
to the left. What I found was that the jittering got worse the further to
the left I turned and improved to the right, so it seems as though the
higher the resistance the longer the port takes to read it which is probably
causing the jittering.
I now use a Microsoft wheel which, due to it's digital control, has
eliminated the jittering
I don't know of any other way of solving this problem except maybe trying
different soundcards or gameports.

Ian Parker

>That makes sense... Do you have any idea what other things could cause the
>jittering? My system is configured perfectly with no hardware or software
>conflicts of any kind...and I don't even have a modem in my machine!

>Marc.

>>Yes, I think that the pot can't report jitering values when you DON'T even
>move
>>the wheel. It must be controller's fault imo.

by **Marc Collin** » Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Thanks for the clarifications...please post and let us know whether it
works--or not!

Marc.

>On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:30:13 -0500, "Marc Collins"

>>You mean your Thomas wheel also "jitters" in GPL (or other sims.)?
>>Uninstall sound card--my game port is on the sound card...could you
>>elaborate as to what the supposed benefit of this process is?

>>You don't suppose it could be a problem with GPL do you???????????

>>Thanks.

>>Marc.

>Ans. to Marc: Yes, have jitter with TSW. Shaking arms. When I
>installed dedicated Gameport, PDPI L4, the jitter in the calibrations
>went away. The calibrations are rock-solid steady, now. But the arms
>still jitter, and what's worse, the cars in GPL have become more
>eratic. The soundcard item: When you install a game port, there may
>still be mini-drivers in the soundcard software which "booger" the
>contoller operation. It has been suggested by Jake that if you remove
>the soundcard, physically, and its software, after you install the
>Gameport (PDPI, in my case) and then re-install it, (for the sound)
>your machine will recognize that the gameport takes precedence and
>will function properly. I am going to try this. Jake, apologies if I
>made any errors. If it works for me, I will post. By the way, that guy
>cutting low 127's at Monza doesn't DESERVE any inprovement! :-) Sam

by **Doug** » Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:00:00

I've looked at all the pedals in the under $200 crowd and the MS is the only
set that works for me. The Thrustmaster Pro came close but they were just
too vertical and I didn't like the brake pedal sticking out further than the
gas (obviously designed for N1, 2, 99). The MS also completely solved the
jitters problem I had on three axis using my previous two thrustmaster
products. It's now smooth as silk.
The onboard 25mhz co-processor is more than adequate to handle the
interface.
The auto-centering is handled by an "electronic spring" whose tension is
adjustable in the MS software supplied with the unit.
I drive GPL almost exclusively. I've got the MS wheel setup for separate
brake and gas and with FF on for the auto-centering action.
I could have purchased a TSW for $230 + shipping but probably would still
have the jitters and have to purchase a high quality gameport ($100) to
solve that problem (re: this thread).
The jitters are gone the wheel and pedals are smooth - i'm going racing!

Doug

>I'm not convinced that the MS FF pedals would justify the purchase. Seems
>like the hardware driver would be designed to utilize feedback that even
>when not utilized may slightly impair the controller's
>bandwidth/responsiveness..and what about centering..even a bungy cord would
>be better than a FF wheel with centering off. I've never used an FF wheel
so
>I could be way off base here.

>>Hey Graeme

>>Those times are not just competitive, there great!
>>Maybe I ought to check into this wheel. One question - how comfortable are
>>the pedals for long sessions? I have long legs and some of the pedals have
>>an upright position which I find awkard. For me, the pedals make the
>>difference in a wheel. The MS FF pedals look promising but the price is
>high
>>considering that I don't care about FF.
>>Any input?

>>Doug

>>>>Thrustmaster uses very inexpensve pots
>>>>(translate to low quality) which makes their controllers unfit for GPL
if
>>>>you want to be competitive.
>>>I'm not sure if that's true, I use a TM "Formula 1" (NASCAR Pro)
>>>wheel/pedal set and I like to think I'm pretty competitive - 1m27.9 at
>>>Monza, 1m04.3 at Watkins, 1m20.0 at Kyalami etc etc and I think I am
>>>also the current leader of the IGPS GPL series (I have to wait until the
>>>Spa results are updated to be sure).
>>>I've had the thing since September and have had no problems with it at
>>>all.

>>>Cheers!
>>>Graeme Nash

>>>http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
>>>ICQ# 11257824

>>>1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

by **Marc Collin** » Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Are there any digital wheels with decent pedals that also have a gear shift?
I don't like using buttons in sims. where you were supposed to be using a
real gear shift.

Marc.

>I've looked at all the pedals in the under $200 crowd and the MS is the
only
>set that works for me. The Thrustmaster Pro came close but they were just
>too vertical and I didn't like the brake pedal sticking out further than
the
>gas (obviously designed for N1, 2, 99). The MS also completely solved the
>jitters problem I had on three axis using my previous two thrustmaster
>products. It's now smooth as silk.
>The onboard 25mhz co-processor is more than adequate to handle the
>interface.
>The auto-centering is handled by an "electronic spring" whose tension is
>adjustable in the MS software supplied with the unit.
>I drive GPL almost exclusively. I've got the MS wheel setup for separate
>brake and gas and with FF on for the auto-centering action.
>I could have purchased a TSW for $230 + shipping but probably would still
>have the jitters and have to purchase a high quality gameport ($100) to
>solve that problem (re: this thread).
>The jitters are gone the wheel and pedals are smooth - i'm going racing!

>Doug

>>I'm not convinced that the MS FF pedals would justify the purchase. Seems
>>like the hardware driver would be designed to utilize feedback that even
>>when not utilized may slightly impair the controller's
>>bandwidth/responsiveness..and what about centering..even a bungy cord
would
>>be better than a FF wheel with centering off. I've never used an FF wheel
>so
>>I could be way off base here.

>>>Hey Graeme

>>>Those times are not just competitive, there great!
>>>Maybe I ought to check into this wheel. One question - how comfortable
are
>>>the pedals for long sessions? I have long legs and some of the pedals
have
>>>an upright position which I find awkard. For me, the pedals make the
>>>difference in a wheel. The MS FF pedals look promising but the price is
>>high
>>>considering that I don't care about FF.
>>>Any input?

>>>Doug

>>>>>Thrustmaster uses very inexpensve pots
>>>>>(translate to low quality) which makes their controllers unfit for GPL
>if
>>>>>you want to be competitive.
>>>>I'm not sure if that's true, I use a TM "Formula 1" (NASCAR Pro)
>>>>wheel/pedal set and I like to think I'm pretty competitive - 1m27.9 at
>>>>Monza, 1m04.3 at Watkins, 1m20.0 at Kyalami etc etc and I think I am
>>>>also the current leader of the IGPS GPL series (I have to wait until the
>>>>Spa results are updated to be sure).
>>>>I've had the thing since September and have had no problems with it at
>>>>all.

>>>>Cheers!
>>>>Graeme Nash

>>>>http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
>>>>ICQ# 11257824

>>>>1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

by **Larr** » Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:00:00

The MSFFW pedals are the most comfortable I've used so far...

One word of warning. If you race bare-footed, don't reach your feet
behind the pedals to pull the base up towards you. The molding of the
plastic is RAZOR SHARP on the back of the pedals, and I actually cut a
foot wide open on them.

I intend on taking a file to the back of the pedals next weekend.

-Larry

> Those times are not just competitive, there great!
> Maybe I ought to check into this wheel. One question - how comfortable are
> the pedals for long sessions? I have long legs and some of the pedals have
> an upright position which I find awkard. For me, the pedals make the
> difference in a wheel. The MS FF pedals look promising but the price is high
> considering that I don't care about FF.
> Any input?

by **Sam Seni** » Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:00:00

On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:04:50 -0500, "Marc Collins"

>See Sam's message above...bad news!

>Marc.

>>Go to http://www.pdpi.net and check out their PDPI L4 gamecard. It has got
>a DSP
>>(digital signal processor on the board) which is said to remove the jitter,
>>improve frame rate, etc...Just check it out and see it for yourself, it's
>>expensive though - more then $100 with shipping.

>>Tadej

>>> I'm willing to try anything to fix this problem. A gamecard, a new
>steering
>>> wheel, a new soundcard and a test for mad cow disease are all options I'm
>>> considering.

>>> Andy.

OK, I guess Mad Cow Disease is the next try at a fix. Tonight we
tried Jake Myers fix for twitches and instability. You recall the idea
was to eliminate any residual mini-drivers from the soundcard software
resident in the computer by installing the Gameport (PDPI) and THEN
physically removing the soundcard AND it's software and then
reinstalling it. The computer was then supposed to recognize that the
gamecard is to take precedence. Controller is a TSW. Well, we did
this. Twitches and instability remain. Performance was actually better
with the old soundcard port. There is a Digital Signal Processor (DSP)
on th PDPI, I believe, but if it's anything like the one I built to
remove static from SW Radio, it just filters out the noise. The static
is still there, you just can't hear it. Thus stability in the
calibration may just "mask" what's actually going on. I don't even
have stable calibration since this last gyration. So, tomorrow I'll
try changing the steering pot. I suspect that maybe the gamecard needs
a "slider" to match your computer speed to the pots in the controller.

"Go with throttle up!" (The last words to the spaceship Challenger)
Sam

by **KCDC** » Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:00:00

I have Logitech Formula (non-force feedback) wheel, that does away with all
bouncing around of the calibration numbers I saw with my TM GP1.
Unfortunately, I'm discovering the calibration is difficult to get centered
(4 to 5 tries usually) and that it drifts when changing windows in GPL. Once
you are driving, it appears to stay where it was when you entered the car,
but whether it is still centered like it was in the calibration window seems
to be a ***shoot.

It seems something odd is going on here, and whether it is the wheels, GPL,
or Windows is unclear. I've tried the Logitech Profiler, but I can't drive
GPL at all with it installed. I've down loaded various centering and
calibration utilities with no effect. The Logitech seems to have some
electronics that smoothes out the jitters, at the expense of calibration
stability. I'm not sure which is worse...

Kevin Caldwell
Calgary, Canada

>On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:04:50 -0500, "Marc Collins"

>>See Sam's message above...bad news!

There is a Digital Signal Processor (DSP)

by **David Ewin** » Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:00:00

> The MSFFW pedals are the most comfortable I've used so far...

> One word of warning. If you race bare-footed, don't reach your feet
> behind the pedals to pull the base up towards you. The molding of the
> plastic is RAZOR SHARP on the back of the pedals, and I actually cut a
> foot wide open on them.

And they say sim racing isn't dangerous!

Dave Ewing

by **Larr** » Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Hehe...

-Larry

> > The MSFFW pedals are the most comfortable I've used so far...

> > One word of warning. If you race bare-footed, don't reach your feet
> > behind the pedals to pull the base up towards you. The molding of the
> > plastic is RAZOR SHARP on the back of the pedals, and I actually cut a
> > foot wide open on them.

> And they say sim racing isn't dangerous!

> Dave Ewing

rec.autos.simulators

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL

Thrustmaster with "the shakes" in GPL