rec.autos.simulators

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Well, "Mr. Smooth", welcome to 1967! :-)

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



> : I'm curious.
> : How many of you are using historically realistic (or as close as the sim
> : will allow) ... settings?

> Well, I have been known to put on a set of pristine white coveralls and
> style my hair with Brylcreem before stepping up to the computer... :-)

> Stephen

> p.s. yes, I shamelessly edited out part of your question.

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David Kar

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by David Kar » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I put the "man-in-hathaway-shirt" eye-patch on, and promptly crashed out of
the race.  Realism, be damned!!

--DK



> : I'm curious.
> : How many of you are using historically realistic (or as close as the sim
> : will allow) ... settings?

> Well, I have been known to put on a set of pristine white coveralls and
> style my hair with Brylcreem before stepping up to the computer... :-)

> Stephen

> p.s. yes, I shamelessly edited out part of your question.

Richard G Cleg

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Richard G Cleg » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00


:> It was only ever "tweaked" twice during the season and one of those
:> tweaks was reversed.

: Actually, both were reversed, according to Mr. Oliver :-)
: But he was talking about the changes made by the driver. The team (probably
: Mr. Chapman) adapted ride height, spring rates etc. for each track.

  Are you sure about that?  The impression given by an article I read
(I think in F1 racing so no guarantee of quality or accuracy there) was
that Clark kept the same spring settings all season - which seemed
like idiocy to me.... but that was the impression given by the article
that he used the same set ups all the time.

: Graham Hill on the other hand changed a lot of settings AND kept meticulous
: records of all values. Now if we could just have a look in that book...

  Actually, I think that Chapman said that he just drove around
***ing around moving the ride hide up and down until he "just" wasn't
touching the bump ***s on the corners.  It annoyed the hell out of
his mechanics apparently.  

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Richard G Cleg

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Richard G Cleg » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00



:> :-)
:> I don't consider changing a set of pads as "tweaking", Ron!!
:>
:> It was said, when he (Clark) raced here in his last Tasman series, that
: his
:> car was not "tweaked" from the time it arrived to the time it left.  (I
:> think they mean that it carried the same basic settings throughout the
:> series).
:> If true then that is certainly an indication of the brilliance of the
: bloke.

: You think so? I dunno, perhaps it also indicates his total lack of
: understanding of what a setup can do for the car?

  Yes... there was a long thread about this on
rec.autos.sports.f1.moderated.  Some people took it as a sign of his
brilliance I took it as a significant weakness in his abilities.  After
all, you're nowhere in modern F1 if you can't do set-up.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

??artij

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by ??artij » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Yes, or to be more accurate, I had understood that the way "we" setup our
1967 Lotus in GPL (which is alike to how modern GP-cars get tuned) has
nothing to do with the way it was done in 1967-reallife. They simply used
the stock setup, and "compensate for the rest". (wasn't that written in the
GPL-manual?). Changes to Clark's car I read about were a change to the bars
in Silverstone (which was undone), and disconnecting the bars altogether
for the Ring (which was common practise).

I would love to have an overview of the setup-changes (parameters) they DID
make from race to race. Do you know what they changed?



David Kar

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by David Kar » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00

And of course, we're all in agreement that during his (too-short) career,
Mr. Clark was indeed simply "nowhere."

--DK



[snip]

Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I think, Martin, that you are attempting to relate "How to Set Up Your 1999
F1 Williams" with "How To Set Up Your 1967 Lotus"!

For a start, the current manual would fill several volumes whereas the 1967
edition might take up all the pages in a small notepad!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------




> > :-)
> > I don't consider changing a set of pads as "tweaking", Ron!!

> > It was said, when he (Clark) raced here in his last Tasman series, that
> his
> > car was not "tweaked" from the time it arrived to the time it left.  (I
> > think they mean that it carried the same basic settings throughout the
> > series).
> > If true then that is certainly an indication of the brilliance of the
> bloke.

> You think so? I dunno, perhaps it also indicates his total lack of
> understanding of what a setup can do for the car?

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Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

That's interesting, because down here that advert was for the
man-in-a-Whitmont-shirt!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


> I put the "man-in-hathaway-shirt" eye-patch on, and promptly crashed out
of
> the race.  Realism, be damned!!

> --DK




> > : I'm curious.
> > : How many of you are using historically realistic (or as close as the
sim
> > : will allow) ... settings?

> > Well, I have been known to put on a set of pristine white coveralls and
> > style my hair with Brylcreem before stepping up to the computer... :-)

> > Stephen

> > p.s. yes, I shamelessly edited out part of your question.

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Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

You are correct in the matter of the "same settings all season", Richard.
ANother aspect is gearbox ratios......one has to remember that in the early
days of transaxles the ability to simply swap clusters didn't exists: if one
wanted a change of ratios, it was a matter of bolting in a different
gearbox!!  Obviously not too many teams carried dozens of 'boxes from
circuit to circuit!

One fact that appears to escape some people is that the norm was to NOT
fiddle with settings from track-to-track.....but some readers are equating
"setting up" back then with what goes on now........it's trying to compare
apples and oranges.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------





> :> It was only ever "tweaked" twice during the season and one of those
> :> tweaks was reversed.

> : Actually, both were reversed, according to Mr. Oliver :-)
> : But he was talking about the changes made by the driver. The team
(probably
> : Mr. Chapman) adapted ride height, spring rates etc. for each track.

>   Are you sure about that?  The impression given by an article I read
> (I think in F1 racing so no guarantee of quality or accuracy there) was
> that Clark kept the same spring settings all season - which seemed
> like idiocy to me.... but that was the impression given by the article
> that he used the same set ups all the time.

> : Graham Hill on the other hand changed a lot of settings AND kept
meticulous
> : records of all values. Now if we could just have a look in that book...

>   Actually, I think that Chapman said that he just drove around
> ***ing around moving the ride hide up and down until he "just" wasn't
> touching the bump ***s on the corners.  It annoyed the hell out of
> his mechanics apparently.

> --
> Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
>     Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
>       Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
>     www:  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

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Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

See....you are doing the same thing....comparing then with now.  Doesn't
work!

Answer me this.....if Hill was constantly fiddling with ride heights and
camber angles, yet Clark simply got in the car (any car) and drove over
everyone else, why didn't Hill win more often than Clark?

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------






> :> :-)
> :> I don't consider changing a set of pads as "tweaking", Ron!!
> :>
> :> It was said, when he (Clark) raced here in his last Tasman series, that
> : his
> :> car was not "tweaked" from the time it arrived to the time it left.  (I
> :> think they mean that it carried the same basic settings throughout the
> :> series).
> :> If true then that is certainly an indication of the brilliance of the
> : bloke.

> : You think so? I dunno, perhaps it also indicates his total lack of
> : understanding of what a setup can do for the car?

>   Yes... there was a long thread about this on
> rec.autos.sports.f1.moderated.  Some people took it as a sign of his
> brilliance I took it as a significant weakness in his abilities.  After
> all, you're nowhere in modern F1 if you can't do set-up.

> --
> Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
>     Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
>       Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
>     www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

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Leo Landma

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Leo Landma » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Bruce, I have no idea. I'll see if I can find a way of establishing contact.

Bye,
Leo

Gregor Vebl

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Gregor Vebl » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I thought it appropriate to put my observations here. Namely, after
developing setups for different tracks in GPL for quite some time now,
what I've found out is that the final results are really not very much
different from track to track (well, at least considering the 'normal'
tracks - Monaco and the Ring excluded). I would say that once you decide
on the overall stiffness the rest somewhat fits in automatically,
depending on your driving style. These are not hotlap setups, mind you,
as I do not like hotlapping all that much, but setups for consistent
race driving.

So once you have a setup that has the turn-in, drift and power out
characteristics that match your driving style, you can take the same
setup to any other ('normal') track and have competitive lap times
there. Of course the times might be slightly better if you adjust the
setups a bit, but one setup can be good enough on most tracks.

In modern F1 the extesive setup tinkering is necessary due to the strong
interaction between the downforce, that has to be adjusted from race to
race, and the spring stiffness with bump stops to secure the minimal
ride height, which in turn strongly affects the low speed handling.
Anyone who played GP2, F1RS or MGPRS will know what I mean. But in the
pre-aero era all setup changes, although interconnected, were still
fairly independent in their effect, and more importantly, not as much
speed sensitive. That's why setup changes are not strictly necessary
from track to track.





> :> :-)
> :> I don't consider changing a set of pads as "tweaking", Ron!!
> :>
> :> It was said, when he (Clark) raced here in his last Tasman series, that
> : his
> :> car was not "tweaked" from the time it arrived to the time it left.  (I
> :> think they mean that it carried the same basic settings throughout the
> :> series).
> :> If true then that is certainly an indication of the brilliance of the
> : bloke.

> : You think so? I dunno, perhaps it also indicates his total lack of
> : understanding of what a setup can do for the car?

>   Yes... there was a long thread about this on
> rec.autos.sports.f1.moderated.  Some people took it as a sign of his
> brilliance I took it as a significant weakness in his abilities.  After
> all, you're nowhere in modern F1 if you can't do set-up.

> --
> Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
>     Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
>       Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
>     www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Well, Ron Tauranac is on record as saying that stuff-all was changed between
circuits except transaxle ratios if the next circuit was vastly different
(i.e., from Kyalami to Monaco, for example.).  Apart from that very little
was changed and the only serious testing that was done would be if a
significant mod had been developed, or different tyres or something similar.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


> Yes, or to be more accurate, I had understood that the way "we" setup our
> 1967 Lotus in GPL (which is alike to how modern GP-cars get tuned) has
> nothing to do with the way it was done in 1967-reallife. They simply used
> the stock setup, and "compensate for the rest". (wasn't that written in
the
> GPL-manual?). Changes to Clark's car I read about were a change to the
bars
> in Silverstone (which was undone), and disconnecting the bars altogether
> for the Ring (which was common practise).

> I would love to have an overview of the setup-changes (parameters) they
DID
> make from race to race. Do you know what they changed?



> > I think, Martin, that you are attempting to relate "How to Set Up Your
> 1999
> > F1 Williams" with "How To Set Up Your 1967 Lotus"!

> > For a start, the current manual would fill several volumes whereas the
> 1967
> > edition might take up all the pages in a small notepad!

> > > You think so? I dunno, perhaps it also indicates his total lack of
> > > understanding of what a setup can do for the car?

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Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

:-)
Right on!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


> And of course, we're all in agreement that during his (too-short) career,
> Mr. Clark was indeed simply "nowhere."

> --DK



> [snip]
> >Some people took it as a sign of his
> >brilliance I took it as a significant weakness in his abilities.  After
> >all, you're nowhere in modern F1 if you can't do set-up.

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Bruce Kennewel

GPL: Who uses "historic" settings?

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Okay.
In the meantime I'll drop a line to a mate in Wales who might have some
info.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



> > I'd prefer their postal address, if you can dig it up, Leo.  Are they in
> > Britain or did Alan come back down under?

> Bruce, I have no idea. I'll see if I can find a way of establishing
contact.

> Bye,
> Leo

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