rec.autos.simulators

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:26:31

So GTR is great, but F1C isn't even though GTR is just a sports car mod of
F1C? .

That doesn't make any sense. They look and feel identical except one is F1,
and one is sports cars.

A properly set up F1 car in F1C is the most realistic sim driving experience
you can get right now. Driving those F1 cars in F1C is also the best way to
improve someone's road racing skills in any sim.

--
David G Fisher

> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:13:04 -0400, "Mike Beauchamp"

> >agreed..
> >papy, more like crappy.

> Besides the shitty multiplayer and tire/aero modelling that's been
> present in everything made using an ISI engine, I agree 100%.

> Not that any of those things are important components of a sim.

by **Mitch_** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:26:33

I turned up the tire scrub sound effect and I get very good feel and can
actually save the car once it does come loose. Keep in mind were talking a
press demo so all this talk is subject to change. I wasnt really comparing
anything just pointing out to Tim that we have options coming other than
NR2003/GPL. The new (un-named)Papy wont have anything to compare for a
couple years.

Mitch

> I disagree, there is no tire feel in GTR making the feel for the edge
almost
> impossible. But in other things they are better, but we are comparing a up
> to date sim with a 4-5 years old one.

> EL

> > I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players so
> > they are in another re-write.

> > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large
> > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving
standpoint.
> > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half as
> good
> > as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them.

> > Mitch

> > > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets the
> > > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol

by **Mitch_** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:41:39

Their are "similarities" between F1C and GTR press demo (not the mod) as
their is between N4 and NR2003, but hardly identical. I just ran a few laps
at Spa using the SCC mod and immediately went back to GTR and the difference
is enough that I doubt Ill ever go back to SCC.

Mitch

> So GTR is great, but F1C isn't even though GTR is just a sports car mod of
> F1C? .

> That doesn't make any sense. They look and feel identical except one is
F1,
> and one is sports cars.

> A properly set up F1 car in F1C is the most realistic sim driving
experience
> you can get right now. Driving those F1 cars in F1C is also the best way
to
> improve someone's road racing skills in any sim.

> --
> David G Fisher

> > On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:13:04 -0400, "Mike Beauchamp"

> > >agreed..
> > >papy, more like crappy.

> > Besides the shitty multiplayer and tire/aero modelling that's been
> > present in everything made using an ISI engine, I agree 100%.

> > Not that any of those things are important components of a sim.

by **Jason Moy** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:23:30

The GTR demo is by far the best thing done in that engine, and from
what I've heard the physics were still in a pretty primitive stage in
that release.

by **Jason Moy** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:33:42

If F1C fixed a few things I'm sure I'd be enjoying it as much as when
it came out. Aside from the tracks which I don't need to harp on
again, the tire and aero models are silly. It's easier to control a
slide at high speed than at low speed since there's no tire flex
whatsoever and the wings don't lose much effectiveness when they're
not pointing in the same direction as the car. The tire model pretty
much speaks for itself when you look at the ridiculous amount of
camber that most people are using since there's no grip or wear
penalty from running the inside edges too hot.

Suspension wise, a real F1 team would run fairly stiff springs and the
ride height as low as possible to maximize downforce and minimize
drag. In F1C you're better off running soft springs (or fully stiff
front, fully soft rear, as seems to be the case for most people) and
cranking up the ride height since the tiny gain made by keeping the
front wing and diffuser close to the ground is dwarfed by the loss in
mechanical grip from running stiff springs.

by **Phillip Malphrus, J** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:09:48

lol, but he's at least had one at some point :)

by EL » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:08:35

I agree that they could probably easily change this,

i did the same thing but still think the sounds is more like a on/off thing
rather then gradual.

EL

> I turned up the tire scrub sound effect and I get very good feel and can
> actually save the car once it does come loose. Keep in mind were talking
a
> press demo so all this talk is subject to change. I wasnt really
comparing
> anything just pointing out to Tim that we have options coming other than
> NR2003/GPL. The new (un-named)Papy wont have anything to compare for a
> couple years.

> Mitch

> > I disagree, there is no tire feel in GTR making the feel for the edge
> almost
> > impossible. But in other things they are better, but we are comparing a
up
> > to date sim with a 4-5 years old one.

> > EL

> > > I just read (BHMS) that SBDT couldnt get decent multi with 16 players
so
> > > they are in another re-write.

> > > Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a
large
> > > margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving
> standpoint.
> > > We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half
as
> > good
> > > as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them.

> > > Mitch

> > > > May have already re-wrote it, but is it any good? Papy still sets
the
> > > > standard for that. Well, that and everything else in a sim. lol

by **Tony Rickar** » Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:57:10

> Have you tried the demo Tim? IMO the press demo outclasses (by a large
> margin) anything Papy has given us to date from a pure driving standpoint.
> We'll have to wait and see what the final brings us but if it's half as
good
> as the demo the new Papy has their work cut out for them.

Without wishing to be too controversial, I think that GTR manages to improve
the quality of FF. As I am not a fan of FF it does absolutely nothing for me
over the Papy sims. Quite the reverse it is less effective in providing feel
through the other cues. I believe it relies on the FF as its primary
mechanism.

Whilst this may seem more realistic I am not convinced that the steering
wheel is the primary means of telling the brain what is going on with a
sliding car but the attitude of the car and seat of the pants feel which is
provided by visual & audio cues in a sim.

Just IMHO of course!

Cheers
Tony

by **Mitch_** » Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:36:32

I totally agree Tony. I also hope the scrubbing sound is improved from the
on/off sound we now get.

Mitch

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:09:05

> I totally agree Tony. I also hope the scrubbing sound is improved from
the
> on/off sound we now get.

The good news is that it seems we are going to get a choice, now that
Kaemmer is back on the scene and GTR is taking the ISI engine further.

I believe we have moved to a level of sophistication where the next "big"
sim release won't necessary blow the competition away as it did in the old
F1GP to ICR to Nascar1 to GP2 etc days.

The only way to reach the ultimate sim is for some very expensive
hydraulics. Otherwise the makers have to find another way of providing the
physical inputs. As stated I believe that Papy & ISI take two different
approaches and neither are right or wrong, I don't care what people say
about real world figures being used there is a fudge element when replacing
physical inputs to the body through graphics, sound or steering wheel FF.

IMHO there is no categoric best sim right now.

Cheers
Tony

by **Mike Donnelly J** » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:53:37

Maybe, but Kaemmer has a better track record of producing. That
definitely gives him an advantage. Besides producing 8 of the best
NASCAR sims ever (N1,2,3,4,99,02,03, & Legends). Then there's ICR 1 &
2. Oh, and I500. I think they also had something called GPL. Not
sure what that's about... :) Sounds like a more impressive resume to
me.

Mike

>>You disagree?

>>> OOOOH!!!!

>>> > Compete, I think the West Brothers would have to have a product first.

>>> > > > Article is from the latest PC Gamer.

>>> > > Sounds like Kaemmer is trying to compete with the West brothers...

>Techically, Kaemmer doesn't have a product yet, either... :-)

>Eldred

by **Mitch_** » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:09:59

To say N1,2,3,4,99,02,03 and Legends are distinctly individual products is
an extreme stretch of the imagination. Its more like N1and N4 with graphics
or minor updates to the original respective game engines for all the rest.
I hear ya though. It was more likely the suits who made those decisions not
Kaemmer

Mitch

by **Jason Moy** » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:02:32

In any case, all Kammer had to do was release 1 product at some point
in his career to make any comparisons to the Wests invalid. =)

Jason

by JP » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:18:32

I think its safe to say he didn't produce eight *different* nascar sims.
Hardly in fact.

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:37:29

> >Their are "similarities" between F1C and GTR press demo (not the mod) as
> >their is between N4 and NR2003, but hardly identical. I just ran a few
laps
> >at Spa using the SCC mod and immediately went back to GTR and the
difference
> >is enough that I doubt Ill ever go back to SCC.

> The GTR demo is by far the best thing done in that engine, and from
> what I've heard the physics were still in a pretty primitive stage in
> that release.

"From what I've heard" being the key phrase. Wasn't everyone's GPL hero Doug
Arnao part of the F1C development team, and didn't he praise the physics?

--
David G Fisher

rec.autos.simulators

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

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So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...

So that's what Kaemmer is up to...