rec.autos.simulators

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

Eddi

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Eddi » Sat, 20 May 2000 04:00:00

That is most certainly true.  Whether enforceable or not, it is defendable,
which means big bucks.


> But it CERTAINLY makes it possible to take you to court and sue the pants
> off you!!

> --
> Regards,
> Bruce Kennewell,
> Canberra, Australia.
> ---------------------------



> > Just because you have a patent does not make it enforceable.



> > > You can look at the patent here  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > > patent no: 5,005,148

> > > I think it applies to a 2D dashboard display only, they describe
> scrolling
> > > it on the screen based on the forces applied to the drivers head.  A
3-D
> > > moving***pit would probably be something different, however, I'm not
a
> > > lawyer.

> > > Dave.



> > > > Hi Pat et al,

> > > > I think we have discussed this before, but for all those new to RAS:

> > > > Atari Coin-op Division has a patent on the moving POV (to simulate
> > driver
> > > > head motion in reaction to car acceleration).  This dates back to
the
> > > > development of Hard Drivin' (arcade game from late 1980's).  I don't
> > know
> > > > if Atari has been enforcing this patent, but I've read it and it's
> real
> > > > (sorry, I don't know the patent number).

> > > > -- Doug

> > > > Milliken Research Associates Inc.


> > > > > Holy ****.  You mean the West's would even consider
> > > > > releasing it without a moving POV in the***pit?
> > > > > Having a locked down view as an option is OK, but
> > > > > come on!  When I first read you post, David, I
> > > > > thought "duh, that's obvious" :)  I've discussed
> > > > > it here lots of times.

> > > > > BTW, I think GPL does the opposite
> > > > > of your description in that the POV moves about in
> > > > > reaction to G-forces, while the***pit does it's
> > > > > own 6-degrees-of-freedom thing.

> > > > > A moving 3D***pit is a necessity to anything that
> > > > > claims to be a sim in the 21st century.  I think GPL
> > > > > and F12K are the only two car sims that have it (except
> > > > > for SODA).  F12K is even disappointing in that it only
> > > > > moves fore-aft.  No lateral forces affect the POV.

> > > > > The right way to do the drivers POV is to model it as
> > > > > a point with mass suspended on a 3-dimensional spring
> > > > > system.  The mass of the point should move in reaction
> > > > > to any G-forces created by movement of the car.  The
> > > > > spring forces suspending the point should be adjusted
> > > > > to limit POV movement to roughly that of a real driver.

> > > > > --
> > > > > Pat Dotson


> > > > > > I just got an e-mail from Chris West regarding this thread -


> > > > > > Hi David,

> > > > > > I saw your posts on ras and the Simracingnews forum. Thats an
> > > interesting theory
> > > > > > you have there. I currently have it working both ways, with a
> > > completely locked
> > > > > > camera, and one which allows the car to move, I prefer the
second
> > > view, since as
> > > > > > you say it communicates what the car is doing a little more.

> > > > > > Chris



> > > wrote...
> > > > > > >One thing I picked up on this weekend while watching the N4 lap
> > > around
> > > > > > >C***te regarding physics - and what I believe we are all
> > after...

> > > > > > >It doesn't really matter if a sim models correct physics if
that
> > > information
> > > > > > >is not passed to the user (driver).  Example:  Rally
> Championship -
> > > From
> > > > > > >outside the***pit the cars *look* like they are handling
> > properly.
> > > The
> > > > > > >suspension is moving with every little bump in the road.  From
> > within
> > > the
> > > > > > >car though IMHO, the "feeling" is not there.

> > > > > > >I can't believe I just picked up on this but here is my
> > observation:
> > > In GPL
> > > > > > >(and forthcoming N4) the drivers viewpoint is fixed and the
cars
> > move
> > > on
> > > > > > >their suspension - up, down, left and right to a certain
degree.
> > > Because my
> > > > > > >"eyes" are staionary, the movement gives the sensation of
> > "reality".
> > > If
> > > > > > >though, as in RC the "eyes" move with the car, there is no
> > sensation
> > > (or it
> > > > > > >is very diminished).

Bruce Kennewel

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

They most likely have a patent on the way in which it is done in their
particular instance.  They could not POSSIBLY patent the result.....only
their method of obtaining that result.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


> How can you patent physics?  This is like patenting using "i" in for loops
for
> programming.

> Jason.


> > Hi Pat et al,

> > I think we have discussed this before, but for all those new to RAS:

> > Atari Coin-op Division has a patent on the moving POV (to simulate
driver
> > head motion in reaction to car acceleration).  This dates back to the
> > development of Hard Drivin' (arcade game from late 1980's).  I don't
know
> > if Atari has been enforcing this patent, but I've read it and it's real
> > (sorry, I don't know the patent number).

> > -- Doug

> >                 Milliken Research Associates Inc.

> --
> Jason Monds
> http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL)
> http://members.home.net/stuff.mondsj/csp - Car Sim Project
> (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Bruce Kennewel

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

But it CERTAINLY makes it possible to take you to court and sue the pants
off you!!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


> Just because you have a patent does not make it enforceable.



> > You can look at the patent here  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > patent no: 5,005,148

> > I think it applies to a 2D dashboard display only, they describe
scrolling
> > it on the screen based on the forces applied to the drivers head.  A 3-D
> > moving***pit would probably be something different, however, I'm not a
> > lawyer.

> > Dave.



> > > Hi Pat et al,

> > > I think we have discussed this before, but for all those new to RAS:

> > > Atari Coin-op Division has a patent on the moving POV (to simulate
> driver
> > > head motion in reaction to car acceleration).  This dates back to the
> > > development of Hard Drivin' (arcade game from late 1980's).  I don't
> know
> > > if Atari has been enforcing this patent, but I've read it and it's
real
> > > (sorry, I don't know the patent number).

> > > -- Doug

> > > Milliken Research Associates Inc.


> > > > Holy ****.  You mean the West's would even consider
> > > > releasing it without a moving POV in the***pit?
> > > > Having a locked down view as an option is OK, but
> > > > come on!  When I first read you post, David, I
> > > > thought "duh, that's obvious" :)  I've discussed
> > > > it here lots of times.

> > > > BTW, I think GPL does the opposite
> > > > of your description in that the POV moves about in
> > > > reaction to G-forces, while the***pit does it's
> > > > own 6-degrees-of-freedom thing.

> > > > A moving 3D***pit is a necessity to anything that
> > > > claims to be a sim in the 21st century.  I think GPL
> > > > and F12K are the only two car sims that have it (except
> > > > for SODA).  F12K is even disappointing in that it only
> > > > moves fore-aft.  No lateral forces affect the POV.

> > > > The right way to do the drivers POV is to model it as
> > > > a point with mass suspended on a 3-dimensional spring
> > > > system.  The mass of the point should move in reaction
> > > > to any G-forces created by movement of the car.  The
> > > > spring forces suspending the point should be adjusted
> > > > to limit POV movement to roughly that of a real driver.

> > > > --
> > > > Pat Dotson


> > > > > I just got an e-mail from Chris West regarding this thread -


> > > > > Hi David,

> > > > > I saw your posts on ras and the Simracingnews forum. Thats an
> > interesting theory
> > > > > you have there. I currently have it working both ways, with a
> > completely locked
> > > > > camera, and one which allows the car to move, I prefer the second
> > view, since as
> > > > > you say it communicates what the car is doing a little more.

> > > > > Chris



> > wrote...
> > > > > >One thing I picked up on this weekend while watching the N4 lap
> > around
> > > > > >C***te regarding physics - and what I believe we are all
> after...

> > > > > >It doesn't really matter if a sim models correct physics if that
> > information
> > > > > >is not passed to the user (driver).  Example:  Rally
Championship -
> > From
> > > > > >outside the***pit the cars *look* like they are handling
> properly.
> > The
> > > > > >suspension is moving with every little bump in the road.  From
> within
> > the
> > > > > >car though IMHO, the "feeling" is not there.

> > > > > >I can't believe I just picked up on this but here is my
> observation:
> > In GPL
> > > > > >(and forthcoming N4) the drivers viewpoint is fixed and the cars
> move
> > on
> > > > > >their suspension - up, down, left and right to a certain degree.
> > Because my
> > > > > >"eyes" are staionary, the movement gives the sensation of
> "reality".
> > If
> > > > > >though, as in RC the "eyes" move with the car, there is no
> sensation
> > (or it
> > > > > >is very diminished).

Bruce Kennewel

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

HAA!  Nice one, Mark.
I'll stick to the 'Product of Scotland' stuff, methinks!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


> And what's wrong with the occasional wee dram of avgas?
> Admittedly, it's an aquired taste and not one for the lightweight but it's
> definately better than the stuff they sell in decorating shops.

> MS


> > "JET FUEL"?!!!!
> > How DARE you insult some of the finest fluids in the known universe?!
:-)
> > ("Jet fuel" indeed!! Hrrmmph!)
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Bruce Kennewell,
> > Canberra, Australia.
> > ---------------------------




> > > > Not necessarily.
> > > > In the northern hemisphere it could be the other way round, due in
no
> > small
> > > > part to the Haig Effect, not to mention the Johnnie Walker Effect,
the
> > > > Glenfiddich Effect and the Chivas Regal Effect.

> > > Just three bottles of Becks do that for me, no nead for that jet fuel
> > stuff...

> > > So...hicks...here!

> > > l8er
> > > ronny

> > > --
> > > "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!"
> > > "Here's a nickel, kid.  Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.

amos-opu

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by amos-opu » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

As in the "Milliken" the Last word on vehicle dynamics?

Sudesh


> Hi Pat et al,

> I think we have discussed this before, but for all those new to RAS:

> Atari Coin-op Division has a patent on the moving POV (to simulate driver
> head motion in reaction to car acceleration).  This dates back to the
> development of Hard Drivin' (arcade game from late 1980's).  I don't know
> if Atari has been enforcing this patent, but I've read it and it's real
> (sorry, I don't know the patent number).

> -- Doug

>                 Milliken Research Associates Inc.


> > Holy ****.  You mean the West's would even consider
> > releasing it without a moving POV in the***pit?
> > Having a locked down view as an option is OK, but
> > come on!  When I first read you post, David, I
> > thought "duh, that's obvious" :)  I've discussed
> > it here lots of times.

> > BTW, I think GPL does the opposite
> > of your description in that the POV moves about in
> > reaction to G-forces, while the***pit does it's
> > own 6-degrees-of-freedom thing.

> > A moving 3D***pit is a necessity to anything that
> > claims to be a sim in the 21st century.  I think GPL
> > and F12K are the only two car sims that have it (except
> > for SODA).  F12K is even disappointing in that it only
> > moves fore-aft.  No lateral forces affect the POV.

> > The right way to do the drivers POV is to model it as
> > a point with mass suspended on a 3-dimensional spring
> > system.  The mass of the point should move in reaction
> > to any G-forces created by movement of the car.  The
> > spring forces suspending the point should be adjusted
> > to limit POV movement to roughly that of a real driver.

> > --
> > Pat Dotson


> > > I just got an e-mail from Chris West regarding this thread -


> > > Hi David,

> > > I saw your posts on ras and the Simracingnews forum. Thats an interesting theory
> > > you have there. I currently have it working both ways, with a completely locked
> > > camera, and one which allows the car to move, I prefer the second view, since as
> > > you say it communicates what the car is doing a little more.

> > > Chris


> > > >One thing I picked up on this weekend while watching the N4 lap around
> > > >C***te regarding physics - and what I believe we are all after...

> > > >It doesn't really matter if a sim models correct physics if that information
> > > >is not passed to the user (driver).  Example:  Rally Championship - From
> > > >outside the***pit the cars *look* like they are handling properly.  The
> > > >suspension is moving with every little bump in the road.  From within the
> > > >car though IMHO, the "feeling" is not there.

> > > >I can't believe I just picked up on this but here is my observation:  In GPL
> > > >(and forthcoming N4) the drivers viewpoint is fixed and the cars move on
> > > >their suspension - up, down, left and right to a certain degree.  Because my
> > > >"eyes" are staionary, the movement gives the sensation of "reality".  If
> > > >though, as in RC the "eyes" move with the car, there is no sensation (or it
> > > >is very diminished).

Ed Solhei

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Ed Solhei » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

Yup...
*The* Milliken :))

Kinda flattering (sp?) to see that real engineers etc. hang around here -
isn't it? :)

--
All the best,
Ed Solheim
** Proud member of the GPLEA **
(Remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply)

amos-opus asked:

> As in the "Milliken" the Last word on vehicle dynamics?

> Sudesh

> > Hi Pat et al,

> > I think we have discussed this before, but for all those new to RAS:

<snip!>
Jan Verschuere

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

Yup... the man. Very flattering indeed.

Good book too... if you got any kind of engineering/science/maths
background, that is. Wouldn't recommend it to the casual reader.

Jan.
=---

<snip>

Bruce Kennewel

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

LOL!!!  HAAAAAAAAA!!!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



> >..snip... however, I'm not a lawyer.

> Don't be sad, this will give you the possibility of actually earning the
> respect and admiration of your fellow humans, instead of only earning it
> from other lawyers.....

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
> "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

> * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
> "Spamkiller"    http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larse

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Goy Larse » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00


>..snip... however, I'm not a lawyer.

Don't be sad, this will give you the possibility of actually earning the
respect and admiration of your fellow humans, instead of only earning it
from other lawyers.....

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

* Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
"Spamkiller"    http://www.spamkiller.com

Ed Solhei

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Ed Solhei » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00

Now *thats* a post worth a beer!!

'Pint's on me Goy!
-
All the best,
Ed Solheim
** Proud member of the GPLEA **
(Remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply)


> Don't be sad, this will give you the possibility of actually earning the
> respect and admiration of your fellow humans, instead of only earning it
> from other lawyers.....

Goy Larse

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Goy Larse » Sun, 21 May 2000 04:00:00


> Now *thats* a post worth a beer!!

> 'Pint's on me Goy!

I might remind you of this some day :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

* Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
"Spamkiller"    http://www.spamkiller.com

Jason Mond

World Sports Cars Gameplay Footage

by Jason Mond » Wed, 24 May 2000 04:00:00

I agree with that then :-)  After reading the patent it is for 2D***pits and
their you had to be much more resourceful I guess.

Jason.


> They most likely have a patent on the way in which it is done in their
> particular instance.  They could not POSSIBLY patent the result.....only
> their method of obtaining that result.

> --
> Regards,
> Bruce Kennewell,
> Canberra, Australia.
> ---------------------------



> > How can you patent physics?  This is like patenting using "i" in for loops
> for
> > programming.

> > Jason.


> > > Hi Pat et al,

> > > I think we have discussed this before, but for all those new to RAS:

> > > Atari Coin-op Division has a patent on the moving POV (to simulate
> driver
> > > head motion in reaction to car acceleration).  This dates back to the
> > > development of Hard Drivin' (arcade game from late 1980's).  I don't
> know
> > > if Atari has been enforcing this patent, but I've read it and it's real
> > > (sorry, I don't know the patent number).

> > > -- Doug

> > >                 Milliken Research Associates Inc.

> > --
> > Jason Monds
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/ - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL)
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

--
Jason Monds
http://www.racesimcentral.net/ - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

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