rec.autos.simulators

Thanks,
Alex

Thanks,
Alex

BTW, I assume that by "sliding", you mean***
the rear of the car out, using opposite lock to
control it.  GPL hotlap drivers do slide, but it's
a four wheel drift.  On my lap, I don't use opposite
lock anywhere on the track.  In fact, I tend to use
excessive positive lock.  ANYTIME I have to use
opposite lock to catch a slide in GPL, my lap time
is lower.

--
Pat Dotson

I must admit I am no where near the fastest GPL driver, I'm
probarbly in 40,001 position;)  I have been practicing
Silverstone alot recently and my best lap (for pole position)
showed in a replay no smoke coming from my tyres, I managed to
keep the car straight the whole way round the lap.  It actually
didn't seem like a fast lap.

Chris

In article <E2oW4.206240

And there's the rub. It's harder to control a race car on a monitor
with a wheel on the desk because it gives no situational awareness or
gforce feedback. That's why a sim should be completely configurable so
that those of us who realize that can make changes to cut us a bit of
slack to overcome this problem.

--
Nos

After two years, there should be plenty of replays available which show
this. I'm not trying to start up a "typical" GPL debate either. You'll just
have to trust me.  :-o

Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine that I need to get over, but I always
try to be as smooth as possible with my sim driving, yet still fast. If it's
necessary to use a "hotlap" style to be fast, then IMO, something is wrong
with the sim. That doesn't mean I think GPL isn't an excellent sim, just not
good enough to crown it king over all others, and to insult and ignore the
rest.

That too. :-P

David G Fisher

********************* Michael E. Carver *************************

Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Then
there's video of all of these cars in the rain, still more smooth and in
control than the GPL cars.

David G Fisher

Where are these replays?

David G Fisher

Exactly, but you are replying to David, who simply can't figure out that GPL
is the most realistic racing simulation ever and correctly models how 1967
Formula 1 handled.

Also, remember that in 68 they had wings, thus downforce so the sliding was
slighty reduced from what you had in 67!

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Dammit David how many times do we have to tell you?  Hotlapping is NOT the
way to be consistantly fast in GPL!  Just ask those hotlappers how many
times they virtually died while hotlapping.  They are ALL dead a couple of
days after doing hotlappings maximum, with a good portion who have virtually
died a couple of hours or minutes after trying to hotlap.  Yet they Shift-R
and continue to do those crazy laptimes.  That's what virtual reality is for
David! You can do the same in any kind of racing simulation!

If you want to be consistantly fast like the real-life F1 drivers were, then
DO IT, but don't expect the hotlappers with an infinite ammount of life to
have the same handling than real F1 drivers back in the days, or in any kind
of racing

Why is it so hard to understand David?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Mmmm Speedvision.

Of course we are talking about Front-engine cars now David.  Please stop
your anti-GPL crusade.  Everybody agrees against you here.  The GPL AI gives
us the correct handling of those cars and it's the FASTEST way I still say.
Do you still have GPL installed?  Come race online and see the fast guy
NEVER sliding into any corners.  They do push-oversteer exiting corners

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

: Exactly, but you are replying to David, who simply can't figure out that GPL
: is the most realistic racing simulation ever and correctly models how 1967
: Formula 1 handled.

  It _is_ the most realistic racing simulation ever.  It does _not_
correctly model how '67 F1 cars handle.  I'm convinced (and have been
for a while) that the GPL cars do handle with excessive back end out.
Sliding is perhaps too extreme a word but I've never seen a lap of GPL
by a human at any speed which actually looked like the real drivers
looked.  From the world record stuff (which I've studied to try to hone
my line and acceleration) to me trundling around fairly slowly,
GPL doesn't "look right" from an out of car view.  It's a very subtle
thing but the cars are far too "tail out".  I'm not talking about four
wheel drift or a rear end slide but just the fact that the cars seem
to naturally slot into handling comfortably with the tail***
out which the real ones did not.  When it comes to spinning or crashing,
we all know that the GPL model is fundamentally a bit***-eyed (unless
the '67 cars really did rocket to 1000 feet in the air while rotating
like a spin-dryer on steroids).  Lack of chassis give and other damping
forces mean that when a GPL car lets go and spins, it really does spin
and keep going more than the cars of that era really did.  ('67 cars
spun out fairly regularly - they didn't often do the 720 degree GPL
spins though).

  GPL is the best there is _at the moment_ and I really love racing it.
However, that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of room for
improvement because to my mind the GPL model is far too "rigid" in what
it does.  In some ways it's a typical "physicist" model constructed
(and very well constructed) from idealised rigid bars connected with
springs on tracks which seem to have fairly uniform coefficients of
friction "by section" (if you see what I mean).

  Like GP2 before it, there isn't much that can be seriously compared
with GPL in terms of accuracy - but there will be (one day).

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
     UPDATED WWW: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

% Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Then
% there's video of all of these cars in the rain, still more smooth and in
% control than the GPL cars.

Duh who would want (or even could) drive in the rain with the rear
drifting out?   Again, it's not the GPL cars, but the drivers that drive
them....

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% I forget where I saw it recently, but someone has a GPL web site with the
% real life record times for each track in '67. For example, the record at WG
% was 1:05 (almost positive). I've yet to see a replay where someone was able
% to do a 1:05 in GPL and hold onto the drive line as the AI do. Nice and
% smooth like the AI and real life video I've seen on television. Monza?
% Mosport?

Pole for 1967 Glen by Hill (1:05.48) vs. Clark's 2nd spot (1:06.07).
3rd was Gurney 1:06.64).  The race fastest lap was by Hill on lap 81.
You can bet that they were pushing the car out to the edge during
qualifying, but kept them more in control during the race.  Have you
seen footage of the qualifying runs for 1967?

Monza's pole by Clark 1:28.5, 2nd Brabham 1:28.8, 3rd McLaren 1:29.31.
Race fastest lap Clark lap 26 at 1:28.5.  From Motor Sport magazine's
covrage of practice, "...Clark was preparing to try some Goodyear tyres,
as he did not like the way the Firestone tyres seemed reluctant to
slide..."  Regarding some of the fast lap times, "...Brabham and McLaren
were on the front row with lap times they could not repeat without a
slip-streaming "tow" from a faster car."  From the race report,
"Stewart lost a whole lap at the pits, having stopped to see if he had
damaged his left rear Goodyear after sliding the tail too far at Lesmo
and hitting the guard-rail."

Mosport's pole by 1:22.4, 2nd Hill 1:22.7, 3rd Hulme 1:23.2.
Race fastest lap by Clark 1:23.1 lap 54.  From the race report in Motor
Sport magazine, "As he [Clark during practice] went into the first
corner past the pits, the tail swung wide and he spun in the middle of
the road at about 120 m.p.h."  The race started with a wet track, again
from Motor Sport: "Clark was still leading but using an awful lot of
road..."  As the rain stopped and the track dried, "Irwin spun on lap
18... Pease spun off... He [Hulme] passed Gurney and then, with the
tail*** well out..."

% After two years, there should be plenty of replays available which show
% this. I'm not trying to start up a "typical" GPL debate either. You'll just
% have to trust me.  :-o

% Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine that I need to get over, but I always
% try to be as smooth as possible with my sim driving, yet still fast. If it's
% necessary to use a "hotlap" style to be fast, then IMO, something is wrong
% with the sim. That doesn't mean I think GPL isn't an excellent sim, just not
% good enough to crown it king over all others, and to insult and ignore the
% rest.

Ask anyone who has raced with me online and they will tell you I am
smooth (to a fault).  During the last GPLWS (Grand Prix Legends World
Series) I placed 4th on the grid at Monza with a 1:28.5 with my race
fastest lap being 1m28.776s.  Of course this is a division where we
don't allow the "hot shoes" to race <G>.  At Mosport I placed 5th on the
grid with a 1:23.22 and Alison Hine (a very smooth driver) had the pole
with a Brabham at 1m22.654s.  At the Glen I placed 3rd on the grid with
a 1m05.562s and had a race fast lap of 1m05.899s.

If you are interested, replays of these races (as well as the Elite
division which is composed of hot-shoes -- i.e., Greger Huttu) are still
available.  I think you would be pleasently surprised to watch Greger in
"race" mode.  He's fast and smooth.  I can provide you with the ftp site
information if you wish (just e-mail me).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% BTW, I assume that by "sliding", you mean***
% the rear of the car out, using opposite lock to
% control it.  GPL hotlap drivers do slide, but it's
% a four wheel drift.  On my lap, I don't use opposite
% lock anywhere on the track.  In fact, I tend to use
% excessive positive lock.  ANYTIME I have to use
% opposite lock to catch a slide in GPL, my lap time
% is lower.

And damn it Pat, you are fast and smooth.... I think only once in our
races did I ever get by you because of a mistake you made... only to get
quickly passed a few laps later <G>

BTW:  For the record Pat isn't a GPL-god all other sims-evil person.  As
a matter of fact he is a staunch defender of f12k.  So put that in your
pipe and smoke it Dave.... it might produce a better effect than what
you are smoking now. ;-)

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=