rec.autos.simulators

  I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is
essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche
racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive
dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars)
  Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious
Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's.  Now I'm pretty sure they didn't
have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was
quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast
but twitchy...hmmm where was I?   OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did
indeed slide.  
  They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa.
on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the
hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at
the top.  Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME
sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear.
These too must have contributed to the downforce effect.  Yet the car
was sliding all the way up the hill.
  Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can
slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive
the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all
over too?
dave henrie

Tim

I think the "one particular lap" statement sort of implies this was a rare
occurence which the drivers didn't plan on doing as a matter of course.
Furthermore, unless you can present timing for that and other, in-line laps
showing the lap in which the moment occurred was significantly faster you
have no point whatsoever.

Jan.
=---

TJSB

Mark Donohue developed the 917K-30 and it was based on the 917K-10.  those
cars were turbocharged and in final form reached 1200 to 1300 bhp in qual
trim.  The 917K coupe which is probly the car Dave is talking about was
normally aspirated, and did not make near that much power.  I think they
came with a 4.5 liter 12 cylinder.  The Aero package was setup for low drag
not for downforce and they were very unstable.  Redman, and Vic Elford will
attest to that.  John Wyer helped solve most of the unstability problems.
the car also had severe camber and toe changes during suspension travel so
the car was darty under braking.

Donohue developed the 917K-30 into a very nice car they made the wheelbase
longer used a modifed nose and rear wing section.  Porsche was very
concerned about wieght to longer wheelbase cars were not used normally due
to the added wieght.  Also the fact the turbocharged motor had a bunch of
boost lag did not help matters.  Mark also tuned that out a bit.

Dave

Sudesh

Yes I understand it was a very compettitive car and I remember reading
that Donohue was really loved it once they got the things you mentioned
ironed out, but that it was also quite a handful. Weren't there other
accidents like the one that nearly killed him where the car snapped in
half?

David G Fisher

What video?  Please name them David.

Be sure that in the videos I have of 1967 they get into major powerslides
and do indeed race like the AI, which is a balance between neutral feeling
and sliding.  Much more than in modern racing of course.  Still, sliding is
not the fastest way to be constantly fast in GPL, and it's proven when you
check out online drivers compared to hotlappers.  But we all know that you
have a misledding experience of GPL multiplayer racing David.  Of course
hotlapping techniques couldn't be achieved by real-life drivers for obvious
reasons and that is why you are misled into thinking that the cars in GPL
slide too much.  It's just that no human beeing would have the balls to do
that.  The numbers of times that any of us got killed in GPL is enormous.

Those F1 drivers were the best and could achieve incredibly fast laptimes
and at the same time keep those over-powered cars the most neutral possible.

-- How hard is it to understand? And if you don't like the sliding effect,
friggin tweak the car!
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

   If you drive the cars in a safe manner then it looks just like the
AI.The reason that the videos you watched look different then GPL is
that the drivers werent out there to kill them selves.I can beat the
AI at all the tracks and look just like the videos show but I can go
even faster and the car is sliding all over the place.Didnt jim clark
say that he didnt push the Lotus as hard as it could take due to not
wanting to kill himself??

Look back even further....Archie Scott-Brown, the brilliant Lister Jaguar
driver....four-wheel drifting all over the place and nobody could match him.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------

My GPL car doesn't 'slide' around like alot of others.  It is because I
drive differently.  I also agree that GPL is not 1000% accurate in its
physics.  Compromises were made so we could run GPL on PC's and not
super-computers.  However, if one opts to drive (and setup) the GPL cars
in a realistic manner, there is no need to let it all hang-out.  That is
unless you want to achieve lap times that are under real-life times of
the era.  Without the fear of serious injury or death (or losing one's
job as a F1 pilot), many GPL drivers overdrive their cars.  Some have
learned to master it to their advantage.  Then there is the other school
of driving where one hangs it all out because they haven't learned to
handle the car yet.  I bet if one wanted to they could drive the real
'67 cars like they do in GPL, but then they wouldn't have a car after
too many laps. ;-)  I am most certainly not the fastest GPL pilot out
there (by a long shot), but I am not dead slow and am more consistent
than most.  I don't win very many races, but I can manage to finish in
the points and even a rare podium finish as well.  I think you are
confusing the car vs. the driver in your evaluation of GPL.

BTW:  GP2 didn't allow one to over-drive the car.  For example the
Parabolica....  you could easily push the car through this turn and
never really lose it (you may have missed the turn, but it would stick
like it was on rails if you nailed the turn in).  GPL models its physics
beyond the envelope as well as within it.

Oh and one more thing, I thought you gave up on GPL because it sucked
online. ;-)

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Again, '67 F1 cars can and did slide, just like they can
and do in GPL.  A good and fast driver, though, won't
usually slide like that, either in GPL or in real life.

--
PD

-GaryR