rec.autos.simulators

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

Rory S. Brow

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Rory S. Brow » Fri, 31 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Alison,

Thanks for your comments.  Actually, the first thing I did was to try to
make the Logitech wheel fit in the Hyper, but it doesn't work out.  All I
can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software
technology is where we want it to be.   Again,  the Hyper Stimulator is
designed to be upgradeable so it in no way is it a disadvantage to own  a
Hyper.  Hyper Stimulator customers will be able to add Force Feedback later
on.  I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best
overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we offer
that.  I hope get the chance to spend some time behind a Hyper Stimulator
Historic Model some day.  Thanks for your comments.  They are always
appreciated.  Now answer the trivial question I posted today.  Don't answer
it too quickly if you know the answer.  Let the group guess awhile.  You
could email me if you want your answer.

--
Rory S. Brown

Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator
"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators"
Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com

Home Designed Computers by Rory
"Custom Computers for your needs!"
Visit www.directcomputers.com

Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street
Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1
Phone 604-671-5997
Fax 604-930-9983



Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to:
the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and
The Kool Racing Challenge Tour
Visit www.players-racing.com


> Rory-

> I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
> Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.  I'm faster and more
> consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a
> passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic
> quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including
> ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel).

> I've been racing GPL for almost two years now, and with a passive wheel
> I'd reached a plateau in terms of speed.  After going to a FF wheel, I'm
> going faster everywhere, and my ability to develop setups, and detect
> the quality of a setup change, is much improved.  I get better race
> results too.

> It took some time (about two weeks) to adjust to the FF wheel, but after
> that, there's no going back.  I tried going back to my (carefully
> crafted, very precise, very high quality) custom passive wheel recently,
> and it absolutely sucked compared to the LogiFF.

> BTW, your LWFF to Hyper Stim comparison is not really valid; you're
> comparing apples to oranges.  Along with a topnotch passive wheel,
> you're comparing great pedals and an ensemble of components which
> creates a very immersive environment against a FF wheel operating in the
> context of a much less immersive environment.

> Why don't you bolt a Logitech FF wheel to a Hyper Stimulator in place of
> its HS-built wheel?  Keep the Hyper Stim's pedals (they are sure to be
> better than the Logitech's) and just configure in GPL to use the Logi
> wheel instead of the HS's.  (Details on my FF page at
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/)

> (BTW, this is a minor point, but note that Logitech's software allows
> you to assign a shift function to one of the six paddles and buttons, so
> you can have, in effect, 11 buttons on the LogiFF.)

> Now drive GPL in this setup (and only this setup) every day for an hour,
> for two weeks.  Then put the HS wheel back in place of the LogiFF.

> Yes, the LogiFF wheel is a cheapo plastic piece of ***compared to the
> HS wheel.  Yes, it uses (yuck!) nylon bearings.  Yes, its wheel wobbles
> because the shaft is too short and because of the play in the nylon
> bearings.  Yes, its pot probably cost 10% of the cost of the pot in the
> HS.

> But I'm betting that you will want to put it back onto the HS after
> spending two weeks with it, and then comparing the passive wheel
> experience to the Force-enabled experience.

> Better still, I'm hoping that you'll want to develop your own FF wheel
> to put in the HS.  If the HS experience is so great - and I'm sure it is
> - then imagine how great it would be when enhanced with a really good FF
> implementation.

> I'm sure that with not a whole lot of effort, you could work up an
> adaptation for the Immersion unit used in the Act Labs Force RS that
> would absolutely rock.  The Immersion unit used in the Force RS is much
> better than the one used in the Logitech Wingman FF.  It has a much
> larger, more powerful motor, toothed belt reduction (vs. cables in the
> Logi), and ball bearings.

> As far as I can tell, there's only one thing wrong with that Immersion
> unit (excessive friction induced by belts that are too tight).  A
> company with your resources could surely develop a fix (adjustable or
> spring-loaded tensioning idlers).

> I bet you could do it in a couple of days.  Pick up a Force RS for $70
> and take it apart and you'll see what I mean.  You might even use the
> RS's internal and electronic bits for your prototype.

> About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's
> call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their
> wheels.  They explained that they were committed to providing the
> absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said
> paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently
> ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for
> years).

> I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back
> of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my
> friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior.

> I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme"
> began offering paddles on their wheels.

> The m***of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very
> best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile
> innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own
> lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them.

> I say it's time for you and Hyper Stimulator to move into the 21st
> century, Rory.  <grin>

> Alison

> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:18:01 GMT, "Rory S. Brown"

> >Pat,

> >I appreciate your reply and respectfully disagree, though you make some
> >valid points.  I have driven GPL with force feedback with the Logitech
Wheel
> >and it doesn't even come close to the feeling I get from sitting in the
> >Hyper Stimulator with the chassis shaker, 12 programmable button steering
> >wheel, form fitted seat, and firm brake pedal.  I hope that some day you
> >will have the opportunity to use your obvious skills to work (checked
your
> >web site) by driving a Hyper Stimulator for a whole week or so.  It is
> >unfortunate the pricing of the Hyper Stimulator means that few people
will
> >get the opportunity to own a Hyper Stimulator.  There is a reason it is
> >priced like it is: Quality.  Just ask any owner of a Hyper Stimulator if
it
> >is worth the price.  You can't make a mistake investing in Quality!

> >We will do force feedback when we determine it is at the correct stage of
> >development.  Please remember, the Hyper Stimulator is designed to be
> >upgradeable so the investment is never lost.  We even had a H Box shifter
> >ready to go for GPL but since Papyrus didn't include this feature in the
> >patch, as they where supposed to do, no point in doing it yet.

> >Again,  Thanks for your input.

> Alison



> Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Pat Dotso

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Pat Dotso » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

You have confused Rory's points with mine, but
thanks for the support anyway :)

--
PD


clip
> Pat, there you are wrong that FF should make your times better, that's clip
> there. I rather feel the grip somehow in my hands than not at all. Also Rory
> is right that to most ppl FF gives better control, because most of the ppl
> can't control grip well without any physical feedback, they can't make
> precise actions based in  just horizontal screen movements. Maybe you can do

J

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by J » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I'm sure you're quite alone with this opinion.

Jens



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J

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by J » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Pat,

you're 100% right.

Jens


>No offense, but you are 90% wrong.

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J

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by J » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Alison,
great post.
Additionally I have to remind, that Papy (the guys with this ultra-high quality
demand) only released their FF-addon, after they were convinced about the
quality of their implementation.
Their earlier claim, FF wasn't ripe enough for a high-quality sim, so was taken
back.
I'm sure that a top end wheel/sim system can even get more out of the existing
FF-sims, (i.e. GPL). But of course the developers have to get their ass up and
go this way instead of telling anybody that it's not worth while/too early/....
IMO A good FF implementation can only be created/improved with an excellent
wheel and a good FF-wheel can only improve together with an excellent FF-sim.

Since I cannot affort to buy a HS (don't even know about the price), I go the
way of improving my existing system (LWFF). After having converted to ball
bearings and got my brake pedal pressure-sensitive (no need for stiffer springs
or/and bigger throw :-), next will be to replace the break pedal by a metal one.
The system will improve with each step, but of course never compete with the HS.
On the good side: The costs also don't compete with the HS
Wheel:          US$ 160
BB conv. kit    < US$ 60, soon for everybody without big wheel-modifications
Pressure sensitive brake pedal: US$ 2   :-)

To be continued....

Jens  


>Rory-

>I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
>Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.  I'm faster and more
>consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a

<snip>
---------------------------------------------

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Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning:
Radio controlled airplanes
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Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

J

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by J » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Alison,
great post.
Additionally I have to remind, that Papy (the guys with this ultra-high quality
demand) only released their FF-addon, after they were convinced about the
quality of their implementation.
Their earlier claim, FF wasn't ripe enough for a high-quality sim, so was taken
back.
I'm sure that a top end wheel/sim system can even get more out of the existing
FF-sims, (i.e. GPL). But of course the developers have to get their ass up and
go this way instead of telling anybody that it's not worth while/too early/....
IMO A good FF implementation can only be created/improved with an excellent
wheel and a good FF-wheel can only improve together with an excellent FF-sim.

Since I cannot affort to buy a HS (don't even know about the price), I go the
way of improving my existing system (LWFF). After having converted to ball
bearings and got my brake pedal pressure-sensitive (no need for stiffer springs
or/and bigger throw :-), next will be to replace the break pedal by a metal one.
The system will improve with each step, but of course never compete with the HS.
On the good side: The costs also don't compete with the HS
Wheel:          US$ 160
BB conv. kit    < US$ 60, soon for everybody without big wheel-modifications
Pressure sensitive brake pedal: US$ 2   :-)

To be continued....

Jens  


>Rory-

>I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
>Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.  I'm faster and more
>consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a

<snip>
---------------------------------------------

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Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning:
Radio controlled airplanes
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Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Pat Dotso

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Pat Dotso » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00


> All I
> can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software
> technology is where we want it to be.

OK, that's different from saying it's currently
useless, or arcade-only.  I know personally
that the software and hardware in it's current
state is very worthwhile - which doesn't mean
that it doesn't need to improve, or won't
improve over time.

I never stated or implied that a FF wheel alone
is more immersive than a complete HS setup.
I did say that a good FF wheel is generally
more immersive than the best non-FF wheels.
What I took issue with is your out-of-hand
dismissal of current FF technology.

FWIW, I do believe that my personal setup
rivals an HS in immersion, as it contains
most all of the elements you ascribe to
the HS.  I have a seat shaker (BSG Labs
Intensor Chair), 12 (or more?) programmable
buttons on my Force RS wheel, and a firm
brake pedal on my custom built pedals.
The only thing I'm really missing is the
sit-down***pit, which I may add next
year when I have a new house and more
room.  Quite frankly, given the choice
between driving with my setup, and driving
in an HS, I would choose my setup because
of the FF.

BTW, all of this assumes GPL FF.  I really
haven't tried anything else that is very
good (except Viper, of which I only tried
the demo).

Thanks for engaging in the discussion.  I
may be ordering a***pit kit sometime next
year :)

--
Pat Dotson
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Pat Dotso

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Pat Dotso » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00


> Rory-

> I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
> Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.

I can't tell you how good it is to hear other
people say this :)  A year ago I felt like the
only sim-driver on the planet who thought FF
would amount to anything.

Now, if we could just get HMD or multi-monitor
support, we would really have something!  Oh
yea, and, RS shifter support in GPL :)

--
Pat Dotson
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Rory S. Brow

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Rory S. Brow » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Pat,

Good to talk to you.  Some valid articulate views.

--
Rory S. Brown

Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator
"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators"
Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com

Home Designed Computers by Rory
"Custom Computers for your needs!"
Visit www.directcomputers.com

Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street
Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1
Phone 604-671-5997
Fax 604-930-9983



Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to:
the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and
The Kool Racing Challenge Tour
Visit www.players-racing.com



> > All I
> > can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software
> > technology is where we want it to be.

> OK, that's different from saying it's currently
> useless, or arcade-only.  I know personally
> that the software and hardware in it's current
> state is very worthwhile - which doesn't mean
> that it doesn't need to improve, or won't
> improve over time.

> > I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best
> > overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we
offer
> > that.

> I never stated or implied that a FF wheel alone
> is more immersive than a complete HS setup.
> I did say that a good FF wheel is generally
> more immersive than the best non-FF wheels.
> What I took issue with is your out-of-hand
> dismissal of current FF technology.

> FWIW, I do believe that my personal setup
> rivals an HS in immersion, as it contains
> most all of the elements you ascribe to
> the HS.  I have a seat shaker (BSG Labs
> Intensor Chair), 12 (or more?) programmable
> buttons on my Force RS wheel, and a firm
> brake pedal on my custom built pedals.
> The only thing I'm really missing is the
> sit-down***pit, which I may add next
> year when I have a new house and more
> room.  Quite frankly, given the choice
> between driving with my setup, and driving
> in an HS, I would choose my setup because
> of the FF.

> BTW, all of this assumes GPL FF.  I really
> haven't tried anything else that is very
> good (except Viper, of which I only tried
> the demo).

> Thanks for engaging in the discussion.  I
> may be ordering a***pit kit sometime next
> year :)

> --
> Pat Dotson
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Rory S. Brow

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Rory S. Brow » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Pat,

Yes, we need multi-monitor support with H Box shifter.

--
Rory S. Brown

Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator
"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators"
Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com

Home Designed Computers by Rory
"Custom Computers for your needs!"
Visit www.directcomputers.com

Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street
Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1
Phone 604-671-5997
Fax 604-930-9983



Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to:
the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and
The Kool Racing Challenge Tour
Visit www.players-racing.com



> > Rory-

> > I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
> > Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.

> I can't tell you how good it is to hear other
> people say this :)  A year ago I felt like the
> only sim-driver on the planet who thought FF
> would amount to anything.

> Now, if we could just get HMD or multi-monitor
> support, we would really have something!  Oh
> yea, and, RS shifter support in GPL :)

> --
> Pat Dotson
> http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Rory S. Brow

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Rory S. Brow » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I'm confused.  You can't afford one but you don't know the price?  Maybe you
can't but what does it cost for you to check the web site
www.hyperstimcanada.com out for the price before you make that statement? Or
the head office in Australia at www.hyperstim.com?

--
Rory S. Brown

Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator
"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators"
Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com

Home Designed Computers by Rory
"Custom Computers for your needs!"
Visit www.directcomputers.com

Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street
Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1
Phone 604-671-5997
Fax 604-930-9983



Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to:
the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and
The Kool Racing Challenge Tour
Visit www.players-racing.com


> Alison,
> great post.
> Additionally I have to remind, that Papy (the guys with this ultra-high
quality
> demand) only released their FF-addon, after they were convinced about the
> quality of their implementation.
> Their earlier claim, FF wasn't ripe enough for a high-quality sim, so was
taken
> back.
> I'm sure that a top end wheel/sim system can even get more out of the
existing
> FF-sims, (i.e. GPL). But of course the developers have to get their ass up
and
> go this way instead of telling anybody that it's not worth while/too
early/....
> IMO A good FF implementation can only be created/improved with an
excellent
> wheel and a good FF-wheel can only improve together with an excellent
FF-sim.

> Since I cannot affort to buy a HS (don't even know about the price), I go
the
> way of improving my existing system (LWFF). After having converted to ball
> bearings and got my brake pedal pressure-sensitive (no need for stiffer
springs
> or/and bigger throw :-), next will be to replace the break pedal by a
metal one.
> The system will improve with each step, but of course never compete with
the HS.
> On the good side: The costs also don't compete with the HS
> Wheel: US$ 160
> BB conv. kit   < US$ 60, soon for everybody without big
wheel-modifications
> Pressure sensitive brake pedal: US$ 2   :-)

> To be continued....

> Jens



> >Rory-

> >I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
> >Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.  I'm faster and more
> >consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a
> <snip>
> ---------------------------------------------

> Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

> Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious
stuff concerning:
> Radio controlled airplanes
> Racing simulation, esp. GPL
> Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Woodie

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Woodie » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00



>About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's
>call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their
>wheels.  They explained that they were committed to providing the
>absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said
>paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently
>ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for
>years).  

>I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back
>of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my
>friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior.  

>I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme"
>began offering paddles on their wheels.

>The m***of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very
>best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile
>innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own
>lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them.

When GPL 1.1 came out, and everyone here was raving about the quality of the
FF, I wrote to this very same "ACME" company about implementing FF.  They
responded that it wasn't worth making the R & D investment until there was
enough demand.  Do us all a favor and jump on the bandwagon by telling "ACME"
that you would once again mortgage your home if they offered an upgrade.

Don McCorkle

pa..

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by pa.. » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Hi, Rory,

And please excuse me for popping into this thread, but I simply feel I
need to ask a question or two here ...

I know I am a "newbie" to the simulator scene and these discussions,
but some of your responses beg the inquiries.

Understanding your position of FF not essentially being "ready for
prime time", it still seems that though the technology may be somewhat
less than perfectly "real" it would be in the best interest of any
manufacturer to try and get in on development as early as possible. If
Hyperstims are being ade to be "upgradable" to FF at some time in the
future, how difficult would it be to implement it in its present form
and use that as a "starting point" for further development ???

It appears that Hyperstim desires to have the most "immersive" racing
simulators available, and with each of your simulators you offer
extensive "option" lists ...   Why not adapt the current FF technology
and make it an "option" ???   Certainly you could charge a fair
additional amount for the implementation, and given the prices of the
units at present, it would not increase the price of the units
dramatically from a percentage standpoint. Would not then the actual
customer have the choice of whether the technology was an advantage or
disadvantage ???

It would seem possible that Hyperstim might actually be "missing" some
business currently by not offering FF as at least an option; with
customers who currently prefer FF either not choosing to purchase a
Hyperstim, or at least waiting until you do implement the FF
technology ...

Your company seems to want to be on the "leading edge" in racing
simulation immersiveness and quality, yet your responses point to a
policy of you will not offer it until "you" think its ready. The
marketplace seems to be voting with its dollars, and it further seems
that most other manufacturers are scrambling to implement FF as
quickly as possible, even with all of the foilbles you seem to feel it
has, and all the while they gain an "experience" knowledge base to
further refine the technology. If nothing else, perhaps your company
could "license" the technology from one of the other manufacturers or
use someone like Act Labs as a supplier of FF motors and drives for
the time being, further allowing you and your company to "learn" from
their implementation while developing your own ...

Pardon me if this seems pretentious, as I don't mean to be, but please
understand I come from "real" auto racing, and if we ever let the
"competition" get too much of a developmental edge then it is always
far more diffcult to "catch up" after the fact. It always seems to
work better to grab onto the new developments, even suffering some of
the pitfalls along the way, than to lag too far behind ...

Just my $ .02 ...

Thanks,

Allan  

>On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:56:55 GMT, "Rory S. Brown" <rorysbr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Alison,

>Thanks for your comments.  Actually, the first thing I did was to try to
>make the Logitech wheel fit in the Hyper, but it doesn't work out.  All I
>can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software
>technology is where we want it to be.   Again,  the Hyper Stimulator is
>designed to be upgradeable so it in no way is it a disadvantage to own  a
>Hyper.  Hyper Stimulator customers will be able to add Force Feedback later
>on.  I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best
>overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we offer
>that.  I hope get the chance to spend some time behind a Hyper Stimulator
>Historic Model some day.  Thanks for your comments.  They are always
>appreciated.  Now answer the trivial question I posted today.  Don't answer
>it too quickly if you know the answer.  Let the group guess awhile.  You
>could email me if you want your answer.

>--
>Rory S. Brown

>Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator
>"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators"
>Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com

>Home Designed Computers by Rory
>"Custom Computers for your needs!"
>Visit www.directcomputers.com

>Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street
>Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1
>Phone 604-671-5997
>Fax 604-930-9983

>Hyper Stimulator Sales: sa...@hyperstimcanada.com
>Computer Sales: sa...@directcomputers.com

>Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to:
>the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and
>The Kool Racing Challenge Tour
>Visit www.players-racing.com

>"Alison Hine" <alison...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
>news:e9en6skqh7h4vg5gdogjvu3gbhtt8h9bsj@4ax.com...
>> Rory-

>> I have to agree with Pat on this one.  A good FF wheel (I use the
>> Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel.  I'm faster and more
>> consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a
>> passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic
>> quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including
>> ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel).

>> I've been racing GPL for almost two years now, and with a passive wheel
>> I'd reached a plateau in terms of speed.  After going to a FF wheel, I'm
>> going faster everywhere, and my ability to develop setups, and detect
>> the quality of a setup change, is much improved.  I get better race
>> results too.

>> It took some time (about two weeks) to adjust to the FF wheel, but after
>> that, there's no going back.  I tried going back to my (carefully
>> crafted, very precise, very high quality) custom passive wheel recently,
>> and it absolutely sucked compared to the LogiFF.

>> BTW, your LWFF to Hyper Stim comparison is not really valid; you're
>> comparing apples to oranges.  Along with a topnotch passive wheel,
>> you're comparing great pedals and an ensemble of components which
>> creates a very immersive environment against a FF wheel operating in the
>> context of a much less immersive environment.

>> Why don't you bolt a Logitech FF wheel to a Hyper Stimulator in place of
>> its HS-built wheel?  Keep the Hyper Stim's pedals (they are sure to be
>> better than the Logitech's) and just configure in GPL to use the Logi
>> wheel instead of the HS's.  (Details on my FF page at
>> http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/force.htm )

>> (BTW, this is a minor point, but note that Logitech's software allows
>> you to assign a shift function to one of the six paddles and buttons, so
>> you can have, in effect, 11 buttons on the LogiFF.)

>> Now drive GPL in this setup (and only this setup) every day for an hour,
>> for two weeks.  Then put the HS wheel back in place of the LogiFF.

>> Yes, the LogiFF wheel is a cheapo plastic piece of crap compared to the
>> HS wheel.  Yes, it uses (yuck!) nylon bearings.  Yes, its wheel wobbles
>> because the shaft is too short and because of the play in the nylon
>> bearings.  Yes, its pot probably cost 10% of the cost of the pot in the
>> HS.

>> But I'm betting that you will want to put it back onto the HS after
>> spending two weeks with it, and then comparing the passive wheel
>> experience to the Force-enabled experience.

>> Better still, I'm hoping that you'll want to develop your own FF wheel
>> to put in the HS.  If the HS experience is so great - and I'm sure it is
>> - then imagine how great it would be when enhanced with a really good FF
>> implementation.

>> I'm sure that with not a whole lot of effort, you could work up an
>> adaptation for the Immersion unit used in the Act Labs Force RS that
>> would absolutely rock.  The Immersion unit used in the Force RS is much
>> better than the one used in the Logitech Wingman FF.  It has a much
>> larger, more powerful motor, toothed belt reduction (vs. cables in the
>> Logi), and ball bearings.

>> As far as I can tell, there's only one thing wrong with that Immersion
>> unit (excessive friction induced by belts that are too tight).  A
>> company with your resources could surely develop a fix (adjustable or
>> spring-loaded tensioning idlers).

>> I bet you could do it in a couple of days.  Pick up a Force RS for $70
>> and take it apart and you'll see what I mean.  You might even use the
>> RS's internal and electronic bits for your prototype.

>> About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's
>> call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their
>> wheels.  They explained that they were committed to providing the
>> absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said
>> paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently
>> ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for
>> years).

>> I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back
>> of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my
>> friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior.

>> I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme"
>> began offering paddles on their wheels.

>> The moral of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very
>> best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile
>> innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own
>> lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them.

>> I say it's time for you and Hyper Stimulator to move into the 21st
>> century, Rory.  <grin>

>> Alison

>> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:18:01 GMT, "Rory S. Brown"
>> <rorysbr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> >Pat,

>> >I appreciate your reply and respectfully disagree, though you make some
>> >valid points.  I have driven GPL with force feedback with the Logitech
>Wheel
>> >and it doesn't even come close to the feeling I get from sitting in the
>> >Hyper Stimulator with the chassis shaker, 12 programmable button steering
>> >wheel, form fitted seat, and firm brake pedal.  I hope that some day you
>> >will have the opportunity to use your obvious skills to work (checked
>your
>> >web site) by driving a Hyper Stimulator for a whole week or so.  It is

...

read more »

Don Scurlo

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Don Scurlo » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00


cg.aol.com>:



>>About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's
>>call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their
>>wheels.  They explained that they were committed to providing the
>>absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said
>>paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently
>>ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for
>>years).  

>When GPL 1.1 came out, and everyone here was raving about the quality of the
>FF, I wrote to this very same "ACME" company about implementing FF.  They
>responded that it wasn't worth making the R & D investment until there was
>enough demand.  Do us all a favor and jump on the bandwagon by telling "ACME"
>that you would once again mortgage your home if they offered an upgrade.

>Don McCorkle

The only thing I would trade my current ECCI wheel/pedal system for would
be the new "ACME" force feedback system.  

--
Don {Anxiously waiting with money burning a hole in my pocket} Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

Tony Borro

Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

by Tony Borro » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Actually, the phrase "No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback"
is an old phrase I often heard used around multi-million dollar flight
simulators.

So it would seem that Rory is not quite alone in this opinion.

Indeed he shares the same opinions of the people at Langley, Boeing,
Lockheed, Edwards, and Draper Labs, etc.

TB


>I'm sure you're quite alone with this opinion.

>Jens



>>My view is that No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback.   At
>>this point there is absolutely no reason to have force feedback in its
><snip>
>---------------------------------------------

>Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

>Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious
stuff concerning:
>Radio controlled airplanes
>Racing simulation, esp. GPL
>Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor


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