rec.autos.simulators

Somebody in rec.autos.simulators likened a motorcycle to a swimming
simulator... you'll never quite get the controls right.  I thought
about this, and it seems to me that you could reasonably accurately
get much of it right.

It seems the key is leaning (but not the rather lame 'leaning' in the
arcade motorcycle games) and counter steering, along with proper
throttle and braking.  The trick is to get the countersteering
right... which seems impossible for all speeds (some compromise or
lowspeed switch)and have the countersteering control the lean angle of
your chassis (so you could whip through a chicane by torque the bars
one way and then the other). The chassis you sat on would need to be
strong, and balanced on pivot points that would make it pretty easy to
rotate, both via weight shifting and steering head.  Realistic trottle
control would be easy to reproduce.  Shifting and brake feel might be
tricky, but surely possible.

I'm looking for an excuse to buy an RGV rolling chassis, and could
potentially put the forks, wheels and swingarms to use on my or
another RG... leaving me with tank, frame and seat (and either RG or
RGV handle bars, throttle, levers)  It seems like these would be
*perfect* to use as motorcycle sim chassis... you'd have the seating
position and all the right controls with a very strong and light
frame.  You'd need to find the right pivot points and attach to some
large, stable ground frame (I imagine this would be the most difficult
part).  

So, does anyone have any idea on how one might make the
steering/countersteering control the lean angle of such a device?
I rigged up a simple prototype using legos (hehe), but my selection
of pieces is rather limiting (just what came with the motorcycle
set)... I need more gear sizes to get the handlebar to lean ratio more
accurate.  

Of course there would be drawbacks (such as lack of rear brake or
clutch in WSBK) and low to high speed steering issues and no feedback
(which real motorcycle gives you loads of).  But even so, would be
vastly superior to joystick or steering wheel.

Does anyone have any other thoughts or issues that should be
addressed in such a project?  

Erik Johnson

www.edj.net

Actually, it sounds like it could be quite fun. At least I'd enjoy it, since
every time I try and ride a bike, I dump the thing. With a full-on bike sim,
I could ride like a total nut case, and always have that wonderful reset
button (like in GPL!).

You might want to check with a local provider of arcade games. I know they
often sell used and new units.

Take care,
Tony

Mike

How are the force feedback effects in WSBK?  I heard they weren't
very good, but haven't used a force feedback controller.  Is the
feedback (assuming joystick) just lateral, or up and down as well?  Is
there feedback for wheelies and stoppies in WSBK?

The 'project' as I've outlined is already a bankbuster, so I suppose
force feedback could be a possibility.

What stick do you use/recommend?  I'd like to buy one to see how
they work (somehow though it is easier for my to justify blowing
thousands on motorcycle parts than hundreds on joysticks).

About a year ago I played an arcade bike game that was a "Harley Davidson"
game.  It was actually pretty cool 'cause the bike moved around with hydraulics
while your feet stayed on the pegs.  You "steered" with the moveable
handlebars, but I dont really remember if they had the concept of
countersteering correct.  I guess the handlebars just became a big joystick.
Maybe the next version.
-----------------------------------------------
ETZ...please remove the NO-SPAM to reply (sorry!)

Part of the problem is that you don't always steer by countersteering.
Some folks steer by leaning. Sure it's not the right way to do it, but
since it can be done, it's a design issue if you want it authentic.

Here's another idea. It would require fooling around with some
motors or electronics, but it could be interesting. Essentially, you
countersteer to initiate the lean angle of the bike, hold the controls
steady and straight though the turn, then steer into the turn to
straighten up at the exit. I'm simplifying a bit, but you get the idea.

So what you could do is design a handlebar controller that works
very differently from a joystick. When you steer in one direction,
a motor with a reduction gear (or something similar)  starts the
steer a pot in the other direction. How fast it steers the pot depends
on how much countersteering you're doing.

Once you straighten out the handlebars, the motor halts, holding
the pot at the "lean angle" you've initiated. Steer the other way,
and the motor will turn the pot the other way to start learning in
the other direction. Keep it up and the bike will straighten up
then lean over until you straighten the bars again.

Of course, someone really handy with DX gameport programming
could probably find a way to simulate such behavior in software.
Unfortunately, my DirectX skills are virtually nonexistent or I would
try it myself.

Neil M.

So the trick would be to allow both leaning and countersteering to
work simulataneously as they do in the 'real' world.  I thought quite
a bit about how I was riding my real bike yesterday, and find that
I don't do much leaning to iniate turns, but counter steering.  I also
noted that the amount of movement of the handle bars is miniscule.
It would be important for the pivot point to make flipping the 'bike'
from left to right pretty easy.

I'm not sure I get the idea.  Steer 'into' the turn?  You would just
'countersteer' the other way.  I envious some sort of gearing between
the handle bars and the tilt of the bike chassis.  

I figured you could rig the pot to the tilt angle of the bike, which
is controllable from the steering head.

I'm not sure why a motor would be required?  

I've played that.  Probably the best arcade motorcycle game around.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't countersteering.  

Microsoft Sidewinder Pro Force Feedback stick is excellent, absolutely
highest quality with optical sensors and excellent motors. About 129.00 with
a 30.00 mail in rebate.

Regards,

Mike

P.S. checkout www.gamecenter.com/Hardware for a review of FF wheels, etc.

Sorry about being a bit confusing. Let's say that you're already leaned
over into the turn. Since you want to maintain your lean angle, you
just hold the handlebars perfectly straight. To finally "level off" at the
turn exit, you'd steer into the turn for just a moment. You're right, it
would 'countersteer' the other way, but only if you held the countersteering
long enough. If you straightened out the bars as you level out, you'd
be back to straight and normal.

This would be a cast-iron b*tch for using a sit-down motorcycle. I was
really referring to something more akin to a conventional controller
that just behaves like a bike instead of a car.

That would work.

For a tilting bike rig, it probably wouldn't be necessary - I was
envisioning a motorcycle version of a typical home "steering wheel"
Since countersteer input controls how fast you lean, and the length
of time you countersteer controls how much you lean, a motor would
be needed in a steering controller to drive the pot ("the lean") at a speed
proportional to the amount of steering input.

Unfortunately, this is one of those ideas that's easier to explain on
a napkin than in text =)

Neil M.

The length of time you counter steer?  Its not how long you steer, but
how far you turn the bars the 'counter' way.  So that when you are
fully leaned over, say to the right, but not changing attitude, your
front wheel is turned just slightly to the left and remains that way
(not straight).  When you go straighten the bars, you bring the bike
to an upright position. The more force you apply, the faster the
steering head turns and the faster the bike changes attitude.  I would
say that at a given speed and given rider positioin, the same amount
angle of turn on the handles bars results in a proportional lean of
the bike.  So simply gearing the head to the body with the right
ratios should be sufficient (assuming again that the body's horizontal
pivot point makes it *easy* flick it about).  

Or with Legos!  I wish there were digital legos with working gears and
what not that could illustrate the concept online.

        Tell Reg Pridmore that.  Oh, sorry, you won't be able to catch
him :-).

             bob

Neil