rec.autos.simulators

Just another GPL post

Andre Warrin

Just another GPL post

by Andre Warrin » Tue, 02 May 2000 04:00:00



Agreed, but learning how to keep the car on the road in GPL took lots
of time and understanding of car physics, F1 2000 feels way to
forgiving/simple imho.

Just a difference of opinion here. There were other games that I
played very much, Gp1, Red Baron 3d and Jimmy White Snooker come to
mind. Some games are just that good and challengig.
With GPL I still learn new things, I still beat my own pb's after more
and more practice, and still have a blast while racing against the AI
or online.

As I said, I play all racing games being released on the PC, and there
are some that I enjoy a lot. I had a great time with RC2000, Colin
McRae, GP1 and F1RS to mention a couple. But all those games started
to become boring after a couple of weeks. GPL still fascinates me
after 2 years. I don't think I'm the only one with this opinion, you
hated it that people mostly talk about GPL here, and that RC2000 is
hardly discussed, but did you ever wonder why that is?

Ok, wake up: No current computer sim will give you a REAL racing
experence. No forces, no smell, no fear, etc.
We're talking about simulators here, games that come as close to the
real thing as possible. Ofcourse they're games and not like the real
thing, come on!

GPL is of the current racing cames the one that comes closest to a
realistic racing experience, even if doesn't even come close to real
racing.

I think/hope you got my point by now.

Andre

Jan Verschuere

Just another GPL post

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 02 May 2000 04:00:00

I didn't interpret his words as such (maybe that's because Andre and I share
the same native language), but I see what you mean.

The difference is in plain sight right there on the clock. Half a second
using the same material and the same amount of practice. Talent.

The difference is also in the amount of time and practise required for a
relative talent/performance level. I too found it quite easy to set good
times in F1 2K (after 3-4hours I was a polesitter on the hardest level),
while after two years with GPL I'm not even up there with the AI. Judging my
"talent" to a known reference (GPL), it follows that F1 2K lacks challenge.
I'm sure with more practise I would find a limit to my speed wich would
require more talent to break, so anyone more talented and willing to invest
the same amount of time could put me in my place. But, since the game has
already given up it's reward, there's no real incentive to continue, so I
doubt very much if prowess at F1 2K will ever carry the same "prestige" as
similar feats in GPL.

I'm not really happy with how it put this, but I hope you get the general
idea (can't think of anything better at the moment anyway).

A pattern is emerging....

Ok, I understand now and what's more: I have to agree (damn! ;-)). It's this
democratic nature of simracing which I really enjoy. In real racing I would
have had to give up ages ago, but in the virtual world I can continue as
long as I have the time to spare. It's hard to judge talent from final
laptime, but, like the kid and your neighbour, easy to spot in the very
beginning. Raw speed is either there or it isn't, all the rest can be
learned, but cannot compensate if speed wasn't there in the first place.

hehehe... half a second will only take me half a second closer,
unfortunately. Rest assured David, my setups suit me (maybe that's the
problem) and my PC is capable, I'm the weak link in the chain. ;-)

Jan.
=---

ymenar

Just another GPL post

by ymenar » Tue, 02 May 2000 04:00:00


It just shows that for you, racing must be done in a real-life environment.
That's all.  For many people, it does not need to be anymore.  Virtual
reality is a way for many to race in way that is more and more realistic
with the years, with the help of technology.  It will never equal real-life
racing, SO FRIGGIN WHAT?  It's still racing, just different.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Jan Hoviu

Just another GPL post

by Jan Hoviu » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

Andre,

Forget DGF, I get your point 8>)

J.

Jan Hoviu

Just another GPL post

by Jan Hoviu » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

David?........DAVID............

Where is your reply to this one?

Peter Ive

Just another GPL post

by Peter Ive » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00



Well, like I say, I haven't given up yet.  In fact I've just finished an
hours training at Monza (typing this whilst still covered in
persperation garnered out of all those g-forces I've had to endure. <g>)
and have improved, if ever so slightly, so I'm still heading in the
right direction even if it is only marginally.  After 8 laps I managed a
1:27.67 (wayhay! Just .02 quicker!) and then, many laps later, got it
down another .02 to 1:27.65, hehe.  At this rate I should be under
1:26.5 by Christmas.  Thanks for the advice, I need all the ideas I can
get my brain around at the moment and so will definitely be taking this
on board.
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

David G Fishe

Just another GPL post

by David G Fishe » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

It's kind of cute the way you GPL guys all stick up for eachother.

David G Fisher


David G Fishe

Just another GPL post

by David G Fishe » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

David's been very busy the past 24 hours, but will reply shortly.

David G Fisher


David G Fishe

Just another GPL post

by David G Fishe » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

I can't really find anything to disagree with in your post.  :-)

Get your son in some karts soon. Just make sure he'll be safe.

What were you expecting Jan?

David G Fisher


Tony Rickar

Just another GPL post

by Tony Rickar » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00


> >Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved with
setups.
> >His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than experimenting
> >looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is to
be
> >out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup change.

> You're using DEFAULT setups???  And the hits just KEEP on coming.. :)
> <sigh>...Which car set the 1:29 lap?

Not default - but a setup I gave him a long time ago - in a Ferrari. Must be
flawed otherwise I would be doing 1:27s in it (yeah right!)

Tony

Tony Rickar

Just another GPL post

by Tony Rickar » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

Thanks David

Now why do I feel bad for NOT posting something you can disagree with :)

Tony



> I can't really find anything to disagree with in your post.  :-)

> Get your son in some karts soon. Just make sure he'll be safe.

> What were you expecting Jan?

> David G Fisher



> > "David G Fisher" wrote

> > > Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old
who
> > did
> > > a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) at
> > Monza
> > > recently.

> > I posted that David, apology accepted!

> > Your point would be proved except that my lad beats me at every racing
> > sim/game apart from GPL. Therefore GPL is the only non arcade game!

> > Joking apart for me it is not the difficulty that makes a sim but how
> close
> > any sim can come to MY perception of what it should feel like. I am not
> hung
> > up on total accuracy. If it feels about right then it captures my
> > imagination.

> > GPL provides that feel (my preference - others may have different
views),
> > however, it has a fairly steep learning curve. So the "GPL community"
> tends
> > to be more fanatical to be prepared to go through the curve. Leaping in
&
> > driving on the pace seems very unlikely compared to an arcade racer.

> > The fact that a 10 year old could achieve decent times seems to prove
this
> > wrong. I can assure you that Mikey has put the effort in (and surprised
me
> > by not giving up when I used to give him a 5 second start on a single
lap
> > sprint) and learnt to "feel" the effects of the car and balance of
> throttle
> > and brake on a split axis. In some senses his lack of experience in a
real
> > car may work for him as the senses are relayed through sight & sound
> only -
> > not through motion.

> > Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved with
> setups.
> > His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than
experimenting
> > looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is
to
> be
> > out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup
change.

> > As stated for me GPL provides the best "feel". How close it is to a true
> '67
> > F1 car I neither know nor really care. I like the way it feels & fools
me
> > into thinking that is how it should be - which to date no other sim has
> > quite achieved. That is my preference, it is what suits me, my PC set
up,
> my
> > driving style (?), my ageing brain etc. Others WILL have differing
> opinions
> > which I understand.

> > I do look forward to other sims. A touring car sim which feels like I
> > believe a touring car would - with the ability to swap door mirrors
> on-line
> > would turn GPL into history for me!

> > Tony

Tony Rickar

Just another GPL post

by Tony Rickar » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

In my mind the "GPL community" doesn't exist to the extent you suggest,
David. Simply that GPL is a highly regarded quality sim by many that
frequent this group.

Controversial comments about it being arcade like are bound to provoke a
number of individual but similar reactions. Which appear to be a unified
voice. Just as they would if you made similar comments about Falcon 4 or
Half Life on the respective newsgroups.

What appears to happen to me is that minor differences of opinion explode as
counter arguments take us further away from the original stance. Then
posters I would normally value are dragged into simple contradictory
arguments value.

It all ends up like the Monty Python sketch - that's not an argument, that's
contradiction - no it isn't :)

I've said this before - if the "GPL community" were presented with a new
sim, which equalled or surpassed the "feel" GPL provides for many of us,
with better (than 1998) graphics, sound, new features, more stable on-line
play then GPL would be dropped just like that. There is no loyalty here -
just desire for the best.

Whilst competent sims come out, which fail to better GPL in enough areas to
make people switch, then the established product will continue to flourish.

The downside is the competent sim is appeared to be rubbished by the GPL
playing community. This is more a reflection of disappointment that as a
whole racing sim nothing better has come along since 1998. Expectations run
VERY high on this newsgroup.

For some reason the newsgroup leans very heavily towards racing sims. Maybe
it is slewed by the percentage who race on-line, hence again the high number
of GPL users.

RAS is a nightmare for manufacturers though. We want to work with them, give
them ideas and develop the software with them. When a new product comes out
though, if it doesn't break new ground immediately it tends to get slammed.
Rather than accept some patches may turn this into the next generation sim.
Some sims have been transformed by patches (AI, physics etc.) but still
haven't been embraced by the newsgroup.

Whoops I am rambling...

Tony

David G Fishe

Just another GPL post

by David G Fishe » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00


I agree, in the same way flight simulators are used to train pilots. It's
just that they aren't even close yet, and when I force myself to step back
form this hobby I enjoy so much and to gain some perspective, I end up
thinking think it's pretty silly to gush over the physics of a sim like GPL,
and/or trash F1 2000's. Of course I see and understand the differences in
various sims, but some people have gone way overboard with the "reality"
claim, and to trash or ignore other quality sims seems ridiculous.

- Show quoted text -

It would be a little more precise since there are always guesses involved in
a sim's physics model. Also, one little miscalculation or slightly wrong
guess can ruin the whole feel.

In my mind, the fly-by wire ff would be only slightly more realistic an
experience than the PC sim, but still miles away from the real thing.

Is the "no comments" directed at me? I know my news reader has missed some
of your posts in the past (noticed this in a deja news search ), so if I
didn't reply, that's the reason.

David G Fisher

David G Fishe

Just another GPL post

by David G Fishe » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00



> > If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim
> > approaches, then your standards are way below mine.

> It just shows that for you, racing must be done in a real-life
environment.
> That's all.  For many people, it does not need to be anymore.  Virtual
> reality is a way for many to race in way that is more and more realistic
> with the years, with the help of technology.  It will never equal
real-life
> racing, SO FRIGGIN WHAT?  It's still racing, just different.

 It will never equal real life racing, but it needs to come a million miles
closer before some of the comments on this newsgroup make any sense.

David G Fisher

David G Fishe

Just another GPL post

by David G Fishe » Wed, 03 May 2000 04:00:00

I'll say it again, 1:16 is not the record for that track. I don't know what
it will eventually be, but that isn't it.

Do you really think you can match or beat the best times of any racing game
(sim or arcde) after just a couple of hours?

GPL, POD, CPR, GP2, F1 RS, MGPRS2, F1 2000, RC 2000. Whatever driving game
I've tried, no matter how different to eachother they are, I always end up
at about the same level in comparison with the top times and online drivers.
That's because none are much more realistic than the other.

David G Fisher




> >What he said in his sly little way was that only GPL fans have REAL
talent.
> >That's a bit of a pompous and insulting attitude. Not to mention
completely
> >wrong and laughable.

> That was not what I meant. If someone does a 1.14 lap with F1 2000,
> that's superb, and I don't think I can beat that that easily. But I
> was a little bit disappointed that I could break the current record
> (as far as I know) within 2 hours practising. I didn't feel I really
> had to work for it, so the fast laps didn't give me any satisfaction.

> >What he tried to make us believe was that with other sims, all that's
needed
> >is practice to be fast (I agree that most people can be extremely fast
with
> >a lot of practice). Then he tells us that only GPL requires real talent,
but
> >that he's also played GPL two hours a day, every day, for the past two
> >years. I guarantee all the other GPL hotlappers have similiar time
invested
> >into the game. So where's the difference?

> The difference is that I beat the current record (afaik) within 2
> hours driving in F1 2000, and I can't even come close to the GPL
> records after 2 years of driving.

> >Never said he's untalented. I have no idea how talented he is. I'll
> >certainly never know how talented he and anyone else is if they've spent
> >anywhere near as many hours with one sim as he has. My guess though is
that
> >he's very talented.

> I feel honoured, but seeing guys like Woeger and Huttu driving 1.27
> shortly after GPL was released, and seeing them driving 1.26 laps on
> Monza now, I'm not talented, they are.
> I'm reasonable fast, but there's a big difference between the guys can
> drive pretty fast after lots of practice, and the guys who can drive
> ridiculous fast laps.

> >They are all the same. Trying to bridge the gap to the fastest known MTM2
> >lap time is the same, and as challenging, as it is to catch the fastest
> >SBK2000 or GPL lap time. Actually, you'll never know who really has great
> >talent in sims because unlike real life racing, anyone, regardless of
talent
> >level, can practice a huge amount of hours and eventually find the limits
of
> >a racing game. All the top guys tend to have an unbelievable amount of
hours
> >invested in their chosen sim.

> This is indeed hard to measure, but fact remains that Woeger and Huttu
> broke all the pb's allmost from the beginning of GPL's release, and
> still they are at the top of most hotlap boards.
> I allways enjoy real life Karting with my friends, but it's allways
> most fun when we go to a Karting centre where none of us drove before.
> Getting a victory there allways gives the most satisfaction!

> >More than likely you just need a setup which suits you better, or
different
> >hardware (CPU, controller) which runs the game that much better and
allows
> >you to gain the elusive half second.

> I have a constant 36fps, so hardware problems are out of the question.
> My current pb for Monza is 1.27.33 (since yesterday :) , I gained time
> by working on my trailbraking in the first lesmo and at the
> Parabolica. It was not due to my setup, I used the same setup, it was
> due to my driving technique.
> Current record is 1.26.52, I don't think that I'm allmost a second
> slower due to a bad setup.

> And there you have it again David, I had to practice and work for my
> new pb, that gives me satisfaction and a feeling of victory, something
> I deeply miss with other driving games/sims.

> Andre

> >David G Fisher


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