rec.autos.simulators

I think though that Andre and some others may have somehow made it their
wife in a secret and very strange marriage ceremony/honeymoon.

David G Fisher

Jan.
=---

Andre says he likes GPL better because in his opinion talent makes a bigger
difference.

You dispute that, but then go on to say he's untalented and no matter how
much he practises his efforts mean nothing because talented people like your
neighbour, yourself and the 10 year old can get very close without
practising much, thereby implying talent is the overriding factor in GPL.

If understanding your standards would bring understanding of the above, I'd
surely love an explanation. Any games out there which meet them BTW?

Personally, I tend to agree with Andre, for no matter how knowledgeable I've
become (in the quest for speed in GPL) and how much I practise, I find
myself smoked by a ten year old and the likes of you. I do not begrudge it
(anymore) and enjoy my racing nonetheless, but realising one's limitations
is one of the most sobering things a person can do.

Jan.
=---

<snip>

I know the feeling.  I finally managed to get into the 1:27s after
downloading some hotshoe setups a couple of months ago and am now at
1:27.69, but I can't figure out how, over the course of what really only
amounts to 4 corners that I can lose so much time.  Hell,  I've managed
a 1:19.24 at Kyalami, which is a much more technical circuit and my PBs
for the main circuits are just in or outside the top 40 hotlaps at
Schubi's site.

I really feel like I'm on the limit at Monza and have actually equalled
my pb and been with 1 tenth on numerous occasions.  That track is really
starting to bug me. :)

I haven't as yet d/l any replays, but I reckon that is going to be my
next step.  On all other circuits I have still been able to find
improvements everytime I have returned to them to do some hotlapping,
but Monza is the first track that I have gone back to and not got any
quicker.  However, (arches back, raises fists to the heavens and in a
very loud voice) I WILL NOT BE BEATEN! <g>

<snip>
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

You didn't know I was a GPL fanatic? You're new here on RAS?
Let me make this very clear to you: I play every racing game that
comes out on the pc. Every time I hope for a GPL beater, and everytime
it's a disapointment. I had big hopes for Sos37, Lemans and F1 2000.
Sos37 and Lemans were complete crap, F1 2000 is, as someone else
correctly described it, the best of the worst. but it has too many
flaws to be a good sim. With all the patches being released there is
still hope for f1 2000, but the 'racing feeling' doesn't even come
close to GPL, no matter how many graphical and sound patches will be
released.
As long as GPL hasn't been beaten, I will remain a GPL fanatic. I'm
not as narrow minded as you with your RC2000 hype.

I, GPL fanatic, have a lower standard when it comes to physics and
realism than you, RC2000 fanatic? O-k ...

So the 10 year old is very talented! Lots of people here can't drive
1:29 laps after lots of practice.

To be honest, I don't believe you, but if you are telling the truth,
strange things are going on here. Devoted racing sim fanatics can't
beat those fastest laps in GPL after lots of practice and you claim
that thousands of arcade racing game fans can rip the pb's apart?

You finally start to get it!

Uh, yes. You still like RC2000? That sim with real life physics?

Andre

Andre

Ther was nothing strange about it at all. I told the CD to open wide and
think of Spa, then incanted the holy verses from "Four Wheel Drift"  :-)

"David G Fisher" wrote

I posted that David, apology accepted!

Your point would be proved except that my lad beats me at every racing
sim/game apart from GPL. Therefore GPL is the only non arcade game!

Joking apart for me it is not the difficulty that makes a sim but how close
any sim can come to MY perception of what it should feel like. I am not hung
up on total accuracy. If it feels about right then it captures my
imagination.

GPL provides that feel (my preference - others may have different views),
however, it has a fairly steep learning curve. So the "GPL community" tends
to be more fanatical to be prepared to go through the curve. Leaping in &
driving on the pace seems very unlikely compared to an arcade racer.

The fact that a 10 year old could achieve decent times seems to prove this
wrong. I can assure you that Mikey has put the effort in (and surprised me
by not giving up when I used to give him a 5 second start on a single lap
sprint) and learnt to "feel" the effects of the car and balance of throttle
and brake on a split axis. In some senses his lack of experience in a real
car may work for him as the senses are relayed through sight & sound only -
not through motion.

Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved with setups.
His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than experimenting
looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is to be
out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup change.

As stated for me GPL provides the best "feel". How close it is to a true '67
F1 car I neither know nor really care. I like the way it feels & fools me
into thinking that is how it should be - which to date no other sim has
quite achieved. That is my preference, it is what suits me, my PC set up, my
driving style (?), my ageing brain etc. Others WILL have differing opinions
which I understand.

I do look forward to other sims. A touring car sim which feels like I
believe a touring car would - with the ability to swap door mirrors on-line
would turn GPL into history for me!

Tony

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

What he said in his sly little way was that only GPL fans have REAL talent.
That's a bit of a pompous and insulting attitude. Not to mention completely
wrong and laughable.

What he tried to make us believe was that with other sims, all that's needed
is practice to be fast (I agree that most people can be extremely fast with
a lot of practice). Then he tells us that only GPL requires real talent, but
that he's also played GPL two hours a day, every day, for the past two
years. I guarantee all the other GPL hotlappers have similiar time invested
into the game. So where's the difference?

Never said he's untalented. I have no idea how talented he is. I'll
certainly never know how talented he and anyone else is if they've spent
anywhere near as many hours with one sim as he has. My guess though is that
he's very talented.

They are all the same. Trying to bridge the gap to the fastest known MTM2
lap time is the same, and as challenging, as it is to catch the fastest
SBK2000 or GPL lap time. Actually, you'll never know who really has great
talent in sims because unlike real life racing, anyone, regardless of talent
level, can practice a huge amount of hours and eventually find the limits of
a racing game. All the top guys tend to have an unbelievable amount of hours
invested in their chosen sim.

More than likely you just need a setup which suits you better, or different
hardware (CPU, controller) which runs the game that much better and allows
you to gain the elusive half second.

David G Fisher

I understand you perfectly.

I guess I just can't fathom how anyone can play any computer game that much.
No game is good enough to make that type of time committment. The challenge
would have long been lost too.

Your standards are below mine then. GPL doesn't come within a million miles
of a real racing experience for me. That's why I choose not to split hairs
regarding the physics model of GPL and F1 2000. If you think there's a big
difference, then you must have a great imagination that kicks into gear for
tw hours every day, every year.

I tested the game and since I happened to be the only r.a.s reader who did,
I tried to let anyone who was interested know what the game would be like,
and made it clear that the final version was not at all like the alpha and
beta demos. How can I be accused of being narrow minded when I'm the one who
likes so many different sims, and you like only one?

If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim
approaches, then your standards are way below mine. It's NOTHING like
driving a real car. It's an eye/hand coordination exercise with cartoon cars
and tracks which create a racing theme.

Just like F1 2000.

If someday you try to tell Schumacher that racing GPL has anything at all in
common with what he knows real racing to be (and a sim like F1 2000
doesn't), he'll laugh his a** off  for almost as long as you'll practice
Mosport this week. It's as similiar to what he does as is baking a cake with
a recipe from Martha Stewart.

 David G Fisher

Just a comment here on simulators vs. real world racing - I think you
statement is a bit on the naive side, David :-)

Of course, what we are doing are playing games, luckily. We're just in the
starting phase of simulations. But eventually it may prove an important part
of racing. Modern motorsports and computers do work together a bit. And with
the opportunity to make very exact traces of tracks via GPS or data logging,
of course there is something in it. The same occurs if you race a real life
opponent via the net in a sim. The better the sim is, the more realistic the
playing becomes w/regs to driving behaviour, setting up the car, racing
other drivers etc. Of course it isn't 100% exact, the danger is that you
could bring all your driving style to the track without adapting to the
machine you're running. This also occurs if you're used to one car, and jump
straight into another and go fast without adapting to the handling.

I had a nice discussion on sims with Carroll Smith at the NEC, and he
certainly does not think of simulations as pure games.

The sims can become as good as true life, but our problem is the interface
with the car. Let's say a Formula Ford was rigged with fly-by wire, and you
had all the controls via a PC. Now Why On Earth would that simulator be more
precise than one that was programmed as a PC system? Would it give more
feedback? Would the racing be more real?

Matt/
thought-machine off, and expecting no comments as usual.

It may be time to start looking at Monza from an equipment standpoint.
Are you running the make which is best suited for that track?  With so
few technical corners, making good times at Monza starts to involve
such things as "How should I gear the car so I exit Curva at redline
in 4th so I can immediately upshift to 5th and into the fat part of
the engine's powerband?" or "How can I gear to reach max velocity on
the back straight?" after you've got the suspension and diff setup to
optimally suit you.

If you are hitting the median speeds through Lesmos and Parabolica for
hotter laps than yours, then you need to work on getting the car to
terminal velocity as quickly as possible.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

That was not what I meant. If someone does a 1.14 lap with F1 2000,
that's superb, and I don't think I can beat that that easily. But I
was a little bit disappointed that I could break the current record
(as far as I know) within 2 hours practising. I didn't feel I really
had to work for it, so the fast laps didn't give me any satisfaction.

The difference is that I beat the current record (afaik) within 2
hours driving in F1 2000, and I can't even come close to the GPL
records after 2 years of driving.

I feel honoured, but seeing guys like Woeger and Huttu driving 1.27
shortly after GPL was released, and seeing them driving 1.26 laps on
Monza now, I'm not talented, they are.
I'm reasonable fast, but there's a big difference between the guys can
drive pretty fast after lots of practice, and the guys who can drive
ridiculous fast laps.

This is indeed hard to measure, but fact remains that Woeger and Huttu
broke all the pb's allmost from the beginning of GPL's release, and
still they are at the top of most hotlap boards.
I allways enjoy real life Karting with my friends, but it's allways
most fun when we go to a Karting centre where none of us drove before.
Getting a victory there allways gives the most satisfaction!

I have a constant 36fps, so hardware problems are out of the question.
My current pb for Monza is 1.27.33 (since yesterday :) , I gained time
by working on my trailbraking in the first lesmo and at the
Parabolica. It was not due to my setup, I used the same setup, it was
due to my driving technique.
Current record is 1.26.52, I don't think that I'm allmost a second
slower due to a bad setup.

And there you have it again David, I had to practice and work for my
new pb, that gives me satisfaction and a feeling of victory, something
I deeply miss with other driving games/sims.

Andre