either CART or the IRL...and she's hot, too... ; )
SD
SD
(Jeff
> >Vincent) writes:
> >> Does Greg have the distinction of being the only Indy 500 driver to
> >>crash (or be drivectly involved in collisions during the race) twice
> >>in consecutive years?
> >Nope - Sarah Fisher crashed in both races, too... :(
> Hmmm, I obviously phrased that poorly.
She's in pro FF2000 at the moment, obviously looking to get into the upper
echelons of American single seater racing, but she has fairly extensive
experience in European endurance sports car racing.
Yes, she is pretty hot, which I find odd considering how much she looks like
her father, who definately was not.
KFG
JB
>>Yup...the teams' problems were beyond their control...if TG wouldn't have
>>let the CART guys race with them, they would have never had this problem.
>>The problems aren't out of TG's control though.
>With you being so narrow-minded that your ears touch in the middle,
>Jesse, it just doesn't leave much room for brain cells, does it?
>Neither Tony George nor CART had nothing to do with any of the
>following:
>Donnie Beechler's engine problems
>Buddy Lazier's engine/electrical problems
>Eddie Cheever's engine problems
>Robbie Gordon's refueling problems
>Stephan Gregoire's oil leak
>Jeff Ward's halfshaft failure
>Davey Hamilton's engine failure
>Al Unser, Jr.'s encounter with the wall
>Scott Goodyear's encounter with the wall
>Frankly, CART's presence also had nothing to do with the spins by
>Hornish, Fisher, Witherill, and Buhl. Unfortunately, the spins by
>Hornish and Fisher took out Goodyear and Unser, two of the IRL's
>stronger contenders. The spin by Buhl was arguably one of those
>"that's racing" deals, and it could just as easily have happened to
>Castroneves, De Ferran, Andretti, or anybody else in that situation.
>In the end, the CART teams definitely emerged on top, but at several
>points throughout the race, there were several IRL regulars who were
>running out in front of the CART drivers. Still, it's the Indy 500,
>not the Indy 250 or so, and it's the results a the end that count.
>This year, the CART entrants really did shine. Hopefully, the IRL
>teams learned something today.
>Time will tell, I'm sure.
>By the way, thanks for inspiring me so -- I'm feeling so warm and
>fuzzy towards CART fans at the moment that I'm tempted to go delete
>all the developmental files I've got on my system for the CART2K and
>CARTCS2K conversions for F1 2000/ F1CS that I've been working on. I
>mean, heck, I've got IRL Heat to give me my jollies, so why should I
>like you?
>Oh, yeah, that's right -- I remember now: I'm not so narrow-minded
>that my ears touch.
>Still, that delete key is looking might attractive right now . . .
>>:-[
>-- JB
>>JB
>>>SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!!!!!
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>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
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>>>>A Cart sim???? I thought it was an IRL race........................Cart
>>sux.
>>>Actually, it was an IRL-sanctioned race, but above all, it was the
>>>Indianapolis 500.
>>>IRL teams and drivers showed up, CART teams and drivers showed up, and
>>>a NASCAR driver even showed up. It was a level playing field with
>>>common engine and chassis rules, and parity across the board: No
>>>equivalency formulas, no factory engine customers, no tampering with
>>>popoff valves -- just a level playing field for the richest and most
>>>time-honored race in the world . . . truly, "The Greatest Spectacle In
>>>Racing."
>>>Last year, the IRL teams and drivers -- especially Buddy Lazier and
>>>Hemelgarn Racing -- put up a good show against the best that CART had
>>>to offer, and Juan Montoya and Target/Chip Ganassi Racing had to earn
>>>their victory. I cheered for Montoya at the end, and wished Lazier
>>>better luck next year.
>>>This year, the IRL teams and drivers put forth a disappointing
>>>performance almost across the board. Roger Penske returned to Indy
>>>and claimed his 11th victory there, fair and square -- and Helio
>>>Castroneves earned his way to victory lane in Indy. Helio won the
>>>race, climbed the fence, drank the milk, kissed the bricks, then did a
>>>victory lap ON TOP of the pace thing. I cheered for him in the final
>>>laps of the race, and wished all the IRL regulars better luck next
>>>year.
>>>They'd better have more than just luck, though -- they had better
>>>spend the next 365 days asking themselves why they had the problems
>>>they did, and they had better find the answers in time to put forth a
>>>better effort at Indy next year. The IRL regulars should be
>>>intimately familiar with what it takes to put prepare an IRL car for a
>>>race, and even in a 500-miler like Indy, the IRL teams should NOT be
>>>seeing so many mechanical gremlins -- they had the entire month of May
>>>(and all of last season, plus the three races before Indy this year)
>>>to figure these things out, but only one CART team had mechanical
>>>problems in cars that they had only seen once or twice before.
>>>>> CART RULES!
>>>CART doesn't suck.
>>>Neither does the IRL.
>>>Neither one rules, though, either.
>>>Today, Helio Castroneves is the one who rules -- he has won the
>>>biggest, richest open-wheel race of the year, and he did it with style
>>>that few other winners have exhibited. Ditto Team Penske.
>>>Congratulations, Helio -- now maybe you can put the hyphen back in
>>>your name. If your face is going to be on the Borg-Warner trophy for
>>>all time, the least they can do is let you spell your name right.
>>>Congratulations to Roger, and congratulations to Gil as well.
>>>Congratulations to Target/Chip Ganassi racing, too.
>>>As for the IRL regulars, all I can say is that I would like to extend
>>>my condolences to those who were plagued with problems that were
>>>beyond their control today. For those who were plagued by problems
>>>that should have been within your control, though, I hope that today's
>>>experience lights a fire under you so you can figure out how to make
>>>all the inherent talent that is there gel, so that we can truly see
>>>what you really ARE made of.
>>>-- JB
JB
> > Vanina Ickx?! Doesn't she run Formula Ford? She would be a GREAT driver
in
> > either CART or the IRL...and she's hot, too... ; )
> > SD
> She's in pro FF2000 at the moment, obviously looking to get into the upper
> echelons of American single seater racing, but she has fairly extensive
> experience in European endurance sports car racing.
> Yes, she is pretty hot, which I find odd considering how much she looks
like
> her father, who definately was not.
-Gault (who thinks she's pretty good looking too)
It was unfortunate that in 2000's Indy Sarah and Lynn St James both
got taken out in the same incident. I think it was Sarah's mistake as
she was lapping Lynn. I believe Sarah was running in the top 20 at
the time. I saw the highlights of the race in a pub and people were
making lots of "women driver" jokes.
I wonder how hard it is for a woman to actually *get* a drive and make
the start of Indy. My admiration goes out to them both.
>(Jeff
>> >Vincent) writes:
>> >> Does Greg have the distinction of being the only Indy 500 driver to
>> >>crash (or be drivectly involved in collisions during the race) twice
>> >>in consecutive years?
>> >Nope - Sarah Fisher crashed in both races, too... :(
>> Hmmm, I obviously phrased that poorly.
>Maybe not- I thought you might mean that but wasn't sure. Don't have the
>answer to that one. :-/
Many of the IRL teams should have performed better than they did at
Indy. Some of it was bad luck, some of it was complacency, and some
of it was just plain stupid. The teams will either figure it out for
themselves, or they'd better find another line of work. No matter
what the reasons, though, if Tony George had attempted to lock out
CART entrants (as I think you're suggesting), it would NOT have helped
the IRL teams one bit. Indy is all about racing, but there's a bit of
Darwinism to be found there, too -- basically, only the strong survive
at Indy, and a lot of the IRL teams didn't manage that this year.
Personally, I have nothing against CART -- if I did, I wouldn't be
helping out on TWO (2) CART sims (well, three actually -- CART2K for
F1 2000, CARTCS2K for F1CS, and CART Heat for NASCAR Heat). It's the
politics behind the whole IRL/CART controversy that I hate.
As for Tony George, he gave us MORE open-wheel, Indy-style racing when
he formed the IRL, and that rates as a good thing in my book. CART
chose not to participate in either the IRL races or the Indy 500 back
when the IRL and CART had common engine and chassis formulas (the 25/8
rule at Indy was an attempt to encourage CART teams to participate in
two (2) events prior to Indy: Phoenix and Walt Disney World). CART
decided to effectively boycotted Indy, though, skipping Phoenix (where
they had raced previously) and Walt Disney World, and thus leaving
themselves at the mercy of the 25/8 rule at Indy -- they claimed they
were locked-out, but it was a boycott, no matter how you slice it.
Then the IRL engine and chassis formula diverged the next year
independent of CART's decisions, because they had made themselves
perfectly clear when they boycotted Indy. And ever since that time,
the IRL has fallen into the "sux" category, and Tony George has been
cast as the "great Satan" of motorsports. I have trouble with that,
given what Tony George has done for racing in general -- if it weren't
for him, there would be no Brickyard 400, and there would be no U.S.
Grand Prix at Indy. Quite an accomplishment, I would say -- thanks to
him, Indianapolis IS the "Racing capital of the world.".
This year at Indy for the 500, though, the IRL teams at Indy did NOT
cover themselves with glory, and the CART teams excelled. It's as
simple as that -- some luck may have been involved, and some
unfortunate circumstances may have occurred, but either way, I won't
attempt to sugar-coat it. But it's ABSOLUTELY wrong to blame Tony
George for any of the IRL's woes. Would you have him reinstate the
25/8 rule again? Frankly, I hated that rule, and I thought this
year's field was the most competitive Indy field in a long, long time
(since well before the CART era, in fact).
If the problems that exist aren't out of Tony George's control, you
can also say that the problems that exist aren't beyond CART's control
either. Open-wheel racing is suffering in this country -- CART has no
identity, and both CART and the IRL is suffering because the split is
also driving sponsors (and sponsors' dollars) away from the open-wheel
segment of motorsports.
Cooperation is the answer -- the time to lay blame is past, and there
really is no blame to lay, frankly. The IRL's formula has proven it's
worth, and CART is now on the brink of moving in that direction, to
provide commonality between both series -- and hopefully cooperation,
cross-promotion, and shared marketing.
Then again, I get the feeling that there IS no animosity among people
like Tony George, Roger Penske, and Chip Ganassi, or most of the teams
and drivers in either CART or the IRL. That sort of thing seems to be
reserved for the "fans," and I use that term loosely.
-- JB
>John Bodin wrote in message <3b11bcfc.1855...@news.iquest.net>...
>>On Mon, 28 May 2001 02:50:38 GMT, "Jesse Black" <Wo...@kartracer.com>
>>wrote:
>>>Yup...the teams' problems were beyond their control...if TG wouldn't have
>>>let the CART guys race with them, they would have never had this problem.
>>>The problems aren't out of TG's control though.
>>With you being so narrow-minded that your ears touch in the middle,
>>Jesse, it just doesn't leave much room for brain cells, does it?
>>Neither Tony George nor CART had nothing to do with any of the
>>following:
>>Donnie Beechler's engine problems
>>Buddy Lazier's engine/electrical problems
>>Eddie Cheever's engine problems
>>Robbie Gordon's refueling problems
>>Stephan Gregoire's oil leak
>>Jeff Ward's halfshaft failure
>>Davey Hamilton's engine failure
>>Al Unser, Jr.'s encounter with the wall
>>Scott Goodyear's encounter with the wall
>>Frankly, CART's presence also had nothing to do with the spins by
>>Hornish, Fisher, Witherill, and Buhl. Unfortunately, the spins by
>>Hornish and Fisher took out Goodyear and Unser, two of the IRL's
>>stronger contenders. The spin by Buhl was arguably one of those
>>"that's racing" deals, and it could just as easily have happened to
>>Castroneves, De Ferran, Andretti, or anybody else in that situation.
>>In the end, the CART teams definitely emerged on top, but at several
>>points throughout the race, there were several IRL regulars who were
>>running out in front of the CART drivers. Still, it's the Indy 500,
>>not the Indy 250 or so, and it's the results a the end that count.
>>This year, the CART entrants really did shine. Hopefully, the IRL
>>teams learned something today.
>>Time will tell, I'm sure.
>>By the way, thanks for inspiring me so -- I'm feeling so warm and
>>fuzzy towards CART fans at the moment that I'm tempted to go delete
>>all the developmental files I've got on my system for the CART2K and
>>CARTCS2K conversions for F1 2000/ F1CS that I've been working on. I
>>mean, heck, I've got IRL Heat to give me my jollies, so why should I
>>waste my effort on a CART sim when its only going to benefit @$$#0!&$
>>like you?
>>Oh, yeah, that's right -- I remember now: I'm not so narrow-minded
>>that my ears touch.
>>Still, that delete key is looking might attractive right now . . .
>>>:-[
>>-- JB
>>>JB
>>>John Bodin wrote in message <3b118dbd.3482...@news.iquest.net>...
>>>>SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>>A Cart sim???? I thought it was an IRL race........................Cart
>>>sux.
>>>>Actually, it was an IRL-sanctioned race, but above all, it was the
>>>>Indianapolis 500.
>>>>IRL teams and drivers showed up, CART teams and drivers showed up, and
>>>>a NASCAR driver even showed up. It was a level playing field with
>>>>common engine and chassis rules, and parity across the board: No
>>>>equivalency formulas, no factory engine customers, no tampering with
>>>>popoff valves -- just a level playing field for the richest and most
>>>>time-honored race in the world . . . truly, "The Greatest Spectacle In
>>>>Racing."
>>>>Last year, the IRL teams and drivers -- especially Buddy Lazier and
>>>>Hemelgarn Racing -- put up a good show against the best that CART had
>>>>to offer, and Juan Montoya and Target/Chip Ganassi Racing had to earn
>>>>their victory. I cheered for Montoya at the end, and wished Lazier
>>>>better luck next year.
>>>>This year, the IRL teams and drivers put forth a disappointing
>>>>performance almost across the board. Roger Penske returned to Indy
>>>>and claimed his 11th victory there, fair and square -- and Helio
>>>>Castroneves earned his way to victory lane in Indy. Helio won the
>>>>race, climbed the fence, drank the milk, kissed the bricks, then did a
>>>>victory lap ON TOP of the pace thing. I cheered for him in the final
>>>>laps of the race, and wished all the IRL regulars better luck next
>>>>year.
>>>>They'd better have more than just luck, though -- they had better
>>>>spend the next 365 days asking themselves why they had the problems
>>>>they did, and they had better find the answers in time to put forth a
>>>>better effort at Indy next year. The IRL regulars should be
>>>>intimately familiar with what it takes to put prepare an IRL car for a
>>>>race, and even in a 500-miler like Indy, the IRL teams should NOT be
>>>>seeing so many mechanical gremlins -- they had the entire month of May
>>>>(and all of last season, plus the three races before Indy this year)
>>>>to figure these things out, but only one CART team had mechanical
>>>>problems in cars that they had only seen once or twice before.
>>>>>> CART RULES!
>>>>CART doesn't suck.
>>>>Neither does the IRL.
>>>>Neither one rules, though, either.
>>>>Today, Helio Castroneves is the one who rules -- he has won the
>>>>biggest, richest
read more »
And why exactly do you think I have something against CART? Did you
miss this in my original message:
Or this:
Or maybe this:
And I supose you missed this as well:
That's called giving credit where credit is due -- and the CART
participants at Indy deserved credit for what they accomplished,
because they came to Indy and excelled, plain and simple. It was the
fastest 33 qualifiers, straight up, and the CART entrants were the
class of the field at the end of the day. They earned the victory at
Indy, plain and simple, and the IRL teams were either outclassed or
unlucky -- or most likely a weird mix of both. Regardless, next
year's 500 is going to be even more exciting, and I can hardly wait.
Anyway, as I said in a separate response, I personally have nothing
against CART -- if I did, I wouldn't be helping out on TWO (2) CART
sims (well, three actually -- CART2K for F1 2000, CARTCS2K for F1CS,
and CART Heat for NASCAR Heat). It's the politics behind the whole
IRL/CART controversy that I hate.
Thanks for dragging politics into my attempt to be gracious towards
CART teams and their fans. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
Unfortunately, there always seems to be someone ready and waiting to
drag out the politics and stir the pot, no matter how gracious others
on either side of the fence try to be.
And that's when I can tell that the ears are starting to touch, in my
book, in case you're wondering.
-- JB
Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.
They didn't participate at Indy in '96 because *Tony changed the
rules* (requiring participation in other events or restricting series
non-participants at Indy).
Again, Tony changed the rules and made it more difficult for CART
teams to enter.
But what has he done for open wheel (Championship) racing? There
is general agreement that "the split" has damaged open wheel racing.
And who initiated the split? Who, seemingly at every turn, has made
moves to advance his own series and make it harder for CART to
participate or even survive?
For instance, the "traditional" month of May. Before the split,
CART lobbied to shorten Indy and Tony resisted, citing tradition (not
to mention $$$ in his pocket). When the IRL failed to fill the stands
through the month, then tradition was out the window and a shorter
schedule was instituted. With Ganassi/Montoya dominating in 2000, I
guess one weekend of qualifying was a bit two easy (for CART to
participate), so Tony added the third day back on for 2001, straddling
Motegi.
Since Tony created the IRL and controls it and funds it, just who
would be most responsible?
Oddly enough, in spite of the turmoil in CART's organizational and
promotional branches (and Tony setting up a rival league), some of the
racing is the best ever, with more parity, bigger fields, better
chassis and engine supplies, more different winners... Again, in
spite of Tony, the split, and the loss of Indy.
Just think where CART would be if Tony had not changed the rules...
:(
If Tony wants to cooperate, and wants to keep the IRL intact, why
not make a fourth Indy race, for the CART cars? It would be more
money in his pocket. The obvious answer is that it would be good for
CART and would lower the status of the Indy 500 even lower than it has
sunken since the split. And he can't do that, since the Indy 500 is
the only 800 pound gorilla in the IRL's corner.
When I see Tony's actions (like blowing off the meeting with engine
manufacturers last year or the year before), I can't muster any other
interpretation.
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +24.63...F2 +151.26...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
> > > Vanina Ickx?! Doesn't she run Formula Ford? She would be a GREAT
driver
> in
> > > either CART or the IRL...and she's hot, too... ; )
> > > SD
> > She's in pro FF2000 at the moment, obviously looking to get into the
upper
> > echelons of American single seater racing, but she has fairly extensive
> > experience in European endurance sports car racing.
> > Yes, she is pretty hot, which I find odd considering how much she looks
> like
> > her father, who definately was not.
> Does this concern you? Not that there's anything wrong with that. :-)
> -Gault (who thinks she's pretty good looking too)
It isn't the fact that she is rather pretty that intrigues me. Rather it's
that she looks SO much like her father, who was, to be generous, rather odd
looking, and YET is rather pretty.
I suppose I can contrast this to Liv Tyler, who is pretty because, thank
GOD, she looks *nothing* like her father.
As a race fan what concerns me is that wrapped from head to toe in nomex,
wearing a full face helmet, stuffed into a car so that all we can see of her
is the top of her head and how she drives she's just frikkin' *beautiful.*
KFG
I once typed a couple of sentences in VROC chat praising Gurney, to which
someone responded, " You're American, arn't you?" : )
Ok, to be serious, there are those drivers who I watch drive and can see
"something," I don't know what. Artistry, flair, magic. Something. Only
twice before have I seen this in a driver that I had NO previous knowledge
of before the first time I saw them drive. The first was Mark Donohue. I had
never heard of him before, in fact I had no knowledge of autoracing at all
at the time, yet I was captivated by his performance. It made me a racing
fan in the first place.
The second was Greg Moore. I had pretty much ignored racing for a few years
until I happened to catch an Indy Lights race on the tube. I had to become a
race fan again just to follow his career.
Now there are three. Vanina has " it," whatever "it" is.
Where "it" will take her is another story. Amon oozed it, and yet he never
won a GP. Although watching him drive sometimes you didn't care WHAT place
he was in.
Still, If I had to put my money on someone right now I'd put it on Vanina
without blinking twice. She's magic.
KFG
> " Actually, CART (specifically Champcar) RULES. the best racing series in
> the
> world."
> American? The World is very small out there.
United States
Canada
Mexico
Japan
Australia
Brazil (ok, they missed this year)
and starting next year
England
Germany
Not as many as F1, I suppose, but certainly a World Championship by any
reasonable standard.
Marc