rec.autos.simulators

Well, I've played ICR2 and GP2 and I believe ICR2 is a much better
sim-game. In ICR2 the car and the track are two different objects. GP2
is not a sim-game. When the track turns to left, you can't really turn
right. When you are finishing a turn, the car allways goes to the
outside, either you accelerate or not. GP2 is just much more beautiful
than GP1. It is still not a simmulator! :-(

Humberto

Frankly, I have never thought ICR2 cars look like they act like real
indycars- real indycars look a lot more... crisp, taught,
on-the-ground. In ICR2, I always feel like I'm on a ***oline, or
walkin in one of those inflated "Moon Walk" things at fairs, every
accelleration has a certain "...here we go!" quality that drives me to
distraction sometimes.

GP2, with all the helps off, is just as hard to drive, I find. But it
seems easier because you sense so many more cues that make the car
seem real. there is MUCH better feedback to the racer. The sounds, for
one, are AMAZING- drive with headphones; it reflects every nuance of
throttle pressure, the gear changes are fantastic. I understand why
Crammond went for only solo car sound- it is better to get ONE car
absolutely right than 5 or 6 mediocre. And the "kerbs" (or "curbs")
make the sense of being on a real road so much more real and intense.

[BTW- to MP/Crammond- there are some stereo bugs in the sound you need
to patch. Right hand curbs are in the right ear, but so are left! Or
is it just me hearing this?]

Hey, I am damn glad ICR2 exists, even in the un-finished form it
appears it will remain in. I love indycar, and I make a point of
always racing the simulated tracks before real races. ICR2 sort of
irks me though, because it simply isn't up to it's potential. So many
small improvements could be made, and the thing would be an absolute
killer app- the potential is in it. I've been writing Papyrus with
suggestions since... November- little did I know what was happening
with Sierra.

It is 1:21a.m., and i just finished a FULL LENGTH race at Hungary!

I am a fan of both too. What is GPDAMED? I hear there are a bunch of
other F1 sims coming out, Psygnosis, Visiware, or whatever- one of
those?

Why won't another company take on IndyCars?!? At least buy ICR2 off of
Sierra, who isn't going to continue with the development.

Those are really nice features for beginners, and make the game much
more accessable to people who don't want to take the time to outlast
the learning curve... but I wish Crammond hadn't put them in such an
obscure place. In fact, they should have been F-keys, like braking and
shift help. I guess having them on for default was wise for all the
people who won't ever get deeply in to it, but it has turned out to be
a problem for many real sim aficianados who never got to that obscure
menu item.

Anyway, I really love GP2, and I am actually a bigger Indycar fan than
F1 fan in general. I hear a lot of people who are irritated with it,
or don't think it was worth the wait. But I just don't get it- I think
it is better than what I expected, and I am amazed at how closely the
sim matches what I see or think I'd feel if I were driving, from what
I know from only watching  real F1 races. The pit stops are amazing,
the AI is great, the starts are great.

If anything, Crammond put TOO MUCH in there for most people to sort
out in anything less than a month. I don't mind, really, since I think
it is all in there, just hard to figure out- such as  getting replays,
or studying the telemetry, or getting setup terms straight, knowing
what is and what is not saved in a saved race, knowing what "random"
versus "all the same" means, the initially VERY confusing graphics
options, on and on. Crammond wanted it to be an arcade for non-sim
types, and a real sim for people willing to spend a month or two
figuring out all the details.  I think it isn't quite easy enough for
an arcade for many (and needs a crazy fast computer for that effect),
and the real sim people are missing the detail that takes time to sort
out.I'm still trying to figure out what some lights in the***pit
are.

In the final balance, there are only minor details I'd want changed, I
think Crammond went well beyond the quality I expected to see.

You should try to play with the steering help off. That is the reason
that the car is trying to turn itself.

You have to disable "steering help" in the controls options.
Be aware that you will not be able to turn off steering help if you
are playing with keyboard control.

Gp2 is a pretty decent simulator, the only unrealistic arcade-like part
is the damage model and the way that damage is repaired so quickly.

Otherwise it is a great sim.

Cheers.

--John
--
-------------------
  John (Joao) Silva
  http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva
  Seattle, Washington USA.

I play with the keyboard. I can't turn off Steering Help. The game
does'nt allow it. =:(

Humberto

I hear the curb sounds coming out of the correct speaker (Vibra 16 sound card).

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Since last week, the MP Analyser has been hit pretty hard.  The server
that handled this service was on it's knees. :-)  I have moved it to

http://www2.card.unc.edu/~ivl/mpinfo.html

This is machine that has more memory.  Hopefully that will help.  In the
meantime, please don't overuse the service.  I am in the process of
coming up with a way to limit the output to certain time intervals.
Until then, every hit has to go through the entire database.

Thank you,

David Martin

Should be not to difficult for them to fix.

Cheers.

--John
--
-------------------
  John (Joao) Silva
  http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva
  Seattle, Washington USA.

I get the same results with a PAS16 sound card.  I recall hearing
properly separated stereo sound on one circuit but can't remember
which one it was.

ds.

  Hehe, plus I think that Geoff missed the gravity by a few m/s^2.
Look at it, you touch wheels, at 60mph, and the car comes down in
about 2-3 seconds (occupacy doesn't go over 80% so YES, time IS a
constant in this case).  Quite a long time.  You drive over a curb,
say 30. Again, car has a tendency to fly, roll about 45 degrees and
stay in the air for about 2 seconds.

  Don't believe it?  Try a start at Monza for example (or Monaco or
Hungaroring).  If you manage to gain about 10 or 15 spots from the
back of the pack, try to squeeze a few AI cars on your way to the
front and watch their front lifting in your mirrors.  They don't come
down for about 2 seconds.  They should either flip due to the lift, or
come down in less than a second.

  Yeah.  It perfectly simulates the FIA, the brains of F1 drivers and
the handling of an F1 car!  <GGG>

Later,

Dave.

  I got no textures on track, grass and sky.  Ttrack, verges and curbs
in the mirror, no textures.  Starting at the back of the pack in
Hungary, with a 25 fps, I get an occupacy of 140%!

  Doesn't this mean the ICR2 graphics engine is MUCH, MUCH faster
(prolly more optimized) than GP2?

  BTW, got a p166, 16EDO, 512k pb, DS64 2DRAM.

  Yes.  But when you look at Indy tracks, they do not have that many
curbs compared to F1 tracks.  Every F1 track has curbs.  In Indy, not
all the tracks have curbs.  I could be wrong though...

  Unfortunatelly, from my experience, 90% of all those newbies are
more interested in crashing AI, than racing the AI. :(

  The graphics in GP2 aren't that great.  When you look at all the
trees in Hungary, Hockenheim, Monza, etc., it all looks like it's
painted on a wall.  No 3d what's so ever.  A few trees do have a 3d
effect type-a-deal.  But there is a LOT of trees "painted" on the
wall.

   One other thing.  I don't know if someone else found out about
this.  When I race (either GP2 or ICR2 - doesn't matter) I look far
ahead.  I.e., entering a corner, I look for the exit, that way I can
locate the apex better and find faster ways exitting the turn.  That's
the way how I used to do it in go karts.  For some reason, with a lot
of details on, my eyes kinda start hurting.  Obviously, real thing
isn't the same as the sims.  I tried putting less track side details
on the screen and it's a little bit better.  Anyone else?  Or is it
just me...

Dave.