rec.autos.simulators

by **John DiFoo** » Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:56:06

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:53:16 +1000, "Byron Forbes"

>> For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an
>> online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real
>> life or not.

> I think we need to modify our view here a bit more even - the tracks
>that don't exist "irl" actually do exist "irl" - one's in the form of
>aspalt, ect, the other in the form of pixels. Have a think about how idiotic
>it is to limit yourself to real life tracks only - just nuts.

> The novelty value of things based on real life stuff is undoubted. But
>there must be as much if not more novelty to being able to create a track
>without the limitations of the available landscape, money or safety.

Indeed. The problem is that a lot of times "fantasy" tracks don't
try hard enough to push the envelope (the ones included in base
rFactor being a case in point). I hope someone will someday
create something really long, be it Mille Miglia or just a 100 mile
layout with wondrous scenery and intense curves out the wazoo
that I can go and get lost on for a half an hour or so...

[Thankfully I know BOTH the Targa Florio and the full Isle of
Man are being created for GPL, and their release should
coincide nicely with the advent of the '69 mod...]

John DiFool

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:21:15

> Indeed. The problem is that a lot of times "fantasy" tracks don't
> try hard enough to push the envelope (the ones included in base
> rFactor being a case in point).

I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing,
certainly for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a
possible exception).

Cheers
Tony

by **ymenar** » Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:59:54

> I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly
> for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible
> exception).

I don't see how a track can be created for online racing in mind, except
perhaps for the only reason to "dumb" out the track of any challenge so that
everybody can race nearby. That's not racing.

If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing online. No
difference.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:02:54

>>I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly
>>for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible
>>exception).
> I don't see how a track can be created for online racing in mind, except
> perhaps for the only reason to "dumb" out the track of any challenge so that
> everybody can race nearby. That's not racing.

Then maybe it is simply easier to develop a computer generated track to
make it race better than an asphalt one...

There is also an element of peripheral vision deficiency that can be
compensated for with the design of track.

Plus lets not kid ourselves how accurate the real life track simulations
are. The reality is that it may be impossible to overtake by lunging
down the inside on the real track be it due to grip level, bump, or dirt
getting thrown onto the surface, which can be achieved too easily on the
simulated track. All this may add up to a different online
representation than the real life track. Developing a track based on
empirical evidence of online racing would not have these restrictions.

> If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing
online. No difference.

Until we have tracks modelled to this level of detail the relationship
between real tracks and simulated tracks will show a difference.

Cheers
Tony

by **Dave Henri** » Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:18:55

Well lets look at a track like VIR.(***ia Int. Raceway) It is my
absolute favorite DRIVING track. But racing is a royal pain. the long
series of esses virtually ties the field into a long snake. While I love
the thrill of getting the car through the esses quickly, it makes for very
poor racing.
Then there is Lime Rock Park, A wonderful track, but DEATH to
openwheelers. I've read several posts about the online crashfests with the
F3 mod at LRP.
Both great tracks...but they can be lousy racers.

dave henrie

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:40

>>If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing
>>online. No difference.
> Well lets look at a track like VIR.(***ia Int. Raceway) It is my
> absolute favorite DRIVING track. But racing is a royal pain. the long
> series of esses virtually ties the field into a long snake. While I love
> the thrill of getting the car through the esses quickly, it makes for very
> poor racing.
> Then there is Lime Rock Park, A wonderful track, but DEATH to
> openwheelers. I've read several posts about the online crashfests with the
> F3 mod at LRP.
> Both great tracks...but they can be lousy racers.

> dave henrie

Dave, Frank's point was that real life tracks which are great for racing
should be great for online racing too, rather than tracks that are great
to drive should be great to race.

In theory if a track has one line in real life it should have the same
online.

The debate was if there is any consideration for a track designer with
online racing compared with real life racing, taking into account the
subtle differences of spacial awareness.

Blind spots may exist online which would not be the case in RL which can
be removed in a fantasy track but would render a simulated RL track too
inaccurate.

At Toban GP it is possible to have a allow a car having got a tow up the
straight to have the inside line into T1 knowing he is compromised for
the esses and maybe nail him into the sharp right hander. There is just
enough room to run side by side and the straight is just the right
length that it is not a given that the slipstream alone is enough - the
exit from the last turn and the speed through the esses have to be just
right to make the pass stick. Certainly one of the best online
experiences I have had.

Maybe it is just luck or is it the result of some good development?

Cheers
Tony

by **ymenar** » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:12:19

>> If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing
>> online. No difference.

> Well lets look at a track like VIR.(***ia Int. Raceway) It is my
> absolute favorite DRIVING track. But racing is a royal pain. the long
> series of esses virtually ties the field into a long snake. While I love
> the thrill of getting the car through the esses quickly, it makes for
> very
> poor racing.

That's why I wrote racing, not driving. If the track in real-life is
excellent for racing, it'll be as good online, perhaps even more considering
all the problematics that are eliminated by the passage from reality to
simulation (although the years are slowly eliminating that gap)

Driving tracks, yeah there's tons of them in NR2003. Great for hotlapping
(Solitude) but I really wouldn't want to race them online. But I would in
reality.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Byron Forbe** » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:27:21

If you would recommend GTR to anyone with rfactor being available then
you'd get a lot of complaints - rfactor has no bugs whatsoever. I had a few
CTDs b4 I adjusted the settings properly and have not had a single glitch
since the first week of it's release.

by **John DiFoo** » Thu, 20 Oct 2005 02:21:46

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:27:21 +1000, "Byron Forbes"

>>I would only say that if you want a sim without bugs then you
>>exactly....none to choose from. I only speak up here because someone that
>>doesn't have GTR and reads all of the stuff you say about it would never
>>buy it and they would be missing the best sim of the year last year. Not
>>perfect, but a hell of a lot of fun. I understand your perspective, just
>>so you understand mine.

> If you would recommend GTR to anyone with rfactor being available then
>you'd get a lot of complaints - rfactor has no bugs whatsoever. I had a few
>CTDs b4 I adjusted the settings properly and have not had a single glitch
>since the first week of it's release.

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=221264

rFactor looks like the last of the 2nd generation of games,
which I arbitrarily define as GPL to the present. Reading
some of the threads over at RSC I'm amazed at how ISI
has to keep reinventing the wheel with regards to various
issues and features.

Then again I'm pretty burned out on sims, waiting for the
next generation to kick in (if it ever does)...

by **Steve Simpso** » Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:28:31

I was an admirer of Simbin well before the GT2002 mod release and I waited
patiently for 6 months for GTR to appear after the German release. I was
really e***d about it after hearing Ian Bell talk about a massive
multiplayer contest where the winner would walk away with a real life
supercar. Every time I ventured online though, it was nothing but
floating cars, cars on top of each other, speed bugs, discos, crash to
desktops etc. - and that was on the official 10taccel servers !

Despite superb physics and graphics, I found it very difficult to get
motivated to even play the game if I couldn't race anyone - what's the
point of spending hours on a car setup just so you can race the AI at 106%
? - yippee-do-dah...

After the release of every patch I tried the game online again and it was
still nothing but disappointment. Then when they had that big countdown
with hints that we'd all be able to race online, everyone once again got
very e***d - myself included. Some people even chose to buy the game at
that point since they had confidence that Simbin was about to deliver but
no, all we got was a half-assed web-based server browser and a dedicated
server that didn't fix any bugs and in fact introduced the infamous 1fps
bug.

Compare that to rFactor which I was able to play within a few hours of its
initial release and was able to have at least 5 online races on the first
day without seeing any bugs.

It's hardly surprising that online sim racers aren't overly eager to beta
test GTL.

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:51:39

Mills Short - great infield section

Toban Short - I love the winding uphill right left after the S/F
straight, fighting car over to left for hard braking into the tight right
hander, then being VERY careful on power application as the track drops away
on exit. :)

Orchard Lake - pretty straight forward but braking into T1 is always
interesting - LOL.

>> Indeed. The problem is that a lot of times "fantasy" tracks don't
>> try hard enough to push the envelope (the ones included in base
>> rFactor being a case in point).

> I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly
> for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible
> exception).

> Cheers
> Tony

rec.autos.simulators

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