rec.autos.simulators

by **Simon Brow** » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

Just for anyone considering a new video card at the moment, there's an
interesting preview at
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
This most interesting point of which is that the "beta2" V5 is only 3 fps
behind in 1024*768*32-bit in Quake 3 Arena. Also in 1600*1200 it's only 1
fps behind. Sure, that's still behind, but the V5 is $50 cheaper and it's
FSAA is a lot faster than nVidia's.
Also for anyone interested in maths and statistics you might want to have a
look at the most mis-leading set of graphs ever produced! :)

by **Phil Le** » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

You know what they say. There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

Cheers

Phil

--
http://www.youpies.co.uk

by **Nathan Blo** » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

your`e right about the graphs i took one glance and thought yeah the
geforce2 trounces the V5 almost double the framerate! but watch those y-
axis! this guy really could do with going back to school (maybe he was
bored) the difference in framerate is negligable.
that V5500 would sure rock in GPL with FSAA

by **Andrew** » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

I believe Q3 supports the T but not the L. I don't think that Q3 should be
the final judge of T&L, it may help more in sims where more time can be
dedicated to AI and physics logic. Apart from drawing walls, floors and
pretty little lights not much else happens in Q3 (apart from the
insurmountable boredom that comes over me every time I see another Quake
game.)

by **? Karsten Borcher** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

Another thing - Voodoo 5 5500 doesn't have a T&L engine right ??
- And Quake 3 supports T&L...

That shows me that the Voodoo card will kick Geforce's ass when in games not
supporting T&L, wich many great games doesn't....

Or am I totally wrong there ???

Borchers

by **Simon Brow** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

I was thinking the exact same thing just the other day. If you look on
nVidia's page it'll tell you Quake 3 A supports hardware T&L right now, but
then you see the frame rates, and the T&L chips (if they are being used)
don't seem to be achieving anything.

Here's my theory, for what it's worth. Running in 1024*768*32-bit, the
speed of the 3d triangle renderer is the bottle-neck, so taking work off the
CPU is having no effect. In which case what's the point in having Hardware
T&L if your card is fill-rate limited anyway (I seem to remember 3dfx using
this exact same phrase to justify not putting T&L on the V5!). Either that
or the T&L isn't working.

It's interesting to compare Q3A frame rates on a GeForce 256 with a TNT2
(which is basically the same 3d chipset but without the T&L chips) and
you'll see the TNT2 is very close to the GeForce scores. The GeForce 256
only surges ahead of the TNT2 when you add DDR memory. So again either the
T&L is having no effect, or it isn't working.

Still, I was getting a V5 anyway. :)
Simon.

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

But N4 will support T&L there is a REAL dilema brewing here.
dave henrie

> Another thing - Voodoo 5 5500 doesn't have a T&L engine right ??
> - And Quake 3 supports T&L...

> That shows me that the Voodoo card will kick Geforce's ass when in games not
> supporting T&L, wich many great games doesn't....

> Or am I totally wrong there ???

> Borchers

> > your`e right about the graphs i took one glance and thought yeah the
> > geforce2 trounces the V5 almost double the framerate! but watch those y-
> > axis! this guy really could do with going back to school (maybe he was
> > bored) the difference in framerate is negligable.
> > that V5500 would sure rock in GPL with FSAA

by **Steve Edward** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

I don't see the dilemma, there aren't any HW T&L boards that can do T&L
faster than the top CPUs right now, so if you buy a current T&L board it
will just slow you down.

Steve

> But N4 will support T&L there is a REAL dilema brewing here.
> dave henrie

> > Another thing - Voodoo 5 5500 doesn't have a T&L engine right ??
> > - And Quake 3 supports T&L...

> > That shows me that the Voodoo card will kick Geforce's ass when in games
not
> > supporting T&L, wich many great games doesn't....

> > Or am I totally wrong there ???

> > Borchers

> > > your`e right about the graphs i took one glance and thought yeah the
> > > geforce2 trounces the V5 almost double the framerate! but watch those
y-
> > > axis! this guy really could do with going back to school (maybe he was
> > > bored) the difference in framerate is negligable.
> > > that V5500 would sure rock in GPL with FSAA

by **Simon Brow** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

This is one of those occasions when hardware testing sites do some silly
pointless test and end up giving people the wrong impression.
The fact that a P3-600 can do T&L faster than the chips on a GeForce is
irrelevant, since in an actual game the P3-600 only has 20-30% of it's
resources to dedicate to T&L. So in a real game the Hardware T&L is
definitely faster. Also using the T&L chips frees up that 20-30% of CPU
cycles for use by other code, such as physics or AI.

A game like GPL or N4 could benefit significantly from using Hardware T&L.

And that's an unbiased view btw, I'm actually getting a V5.
Simon.

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

I compare it to N3's choice of A3d over EAX. The Soundblaster live
received rave reviews from many in the GPL community. A large portion
of them upgraded to SB Lives. Then N3 comes along and uses A3d which is
not supported by SB. Users STILL got 3d posisitonal sound from the Live
via Direct X. But they didn't get ALL the 3d effects possible and
many felt shortchanged.
The 3dcard situation "probably" will follow the same pattern. Many
users upgraded to 3dfx to get the MOST out of GPL, N99, and N3. Now
if they want ALL the Bells & Whistles that N4 can produce, they will
have to upgrade again. For some, this could be the 3rd such upgrade in
the last 2 years.
dave henrie

> I don't see the dilemma, there aren't any HW T&L boards that can do T&L
> faster than the top CPUs right now, so if you buy a current T&L board it
> will just slow you down.

> Steve

> > But N4 will support T&L there is a REAL dilema brewing here.
> > dave henrie

> > > Another thing - Voodoo 5 5500 doesn't have a T&L engine right ??
> > > - And Quake 3 supports T&L...

> > > That shows me that the Voodoo card will kick Geforce's ass when in games
> not
> > > supporting T&L, wich many great games doesn't....

> > > Or am I totally wrong there ???

> > > Borchers

> > > > your`e right about the graphs i took one glance and thought yeah the
> > > > geforce2 trounces the V5 almost double the framerate! but watch those
> y-
> > > > axis! this guy really could do with going back to school (maybe he was
> > > > bored) the difference in framerate is negligable.
> > > > that V5500 would sure rock in GPL with FSAA

rec.autos.simulators

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...

V5/GeForce 2 GTS debate...