rec.autos.simulators

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

David Powel

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by David Powel » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:23:27

You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact that
people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably arent
in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers are
still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have mastered
these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra track
knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a problem
once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one step
ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not confuse
that with the current level of simulations....

David


> <G>



> > David....

> > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its just as
> bad
> > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much
every
> > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal knowledge
> of
> > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who wins
> is
> > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal, then
its
> > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> losers......at
> > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race
> tracks.

> > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the highest
> > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to apply
> their
> > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal levels....when
> you
> > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you would
> choose
> > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up a
> strange
> > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To your
> ears
> > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> "arena"....or
> > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the masters
> apart
> > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
equally
> > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the world.....it
is
> > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from the
> > losers.

> > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
driver."
> > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard at
> > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in every
> > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
walking
> > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I really
hope
> > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > tomorrow.............

> > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > Tom



> > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush (the
car)
> > to
> > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But learning
to
> > use
> > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,  the bit
> > that
> > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush and
paints
> > > does....

> > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a guitar
> like
> > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of music
> (track)
> > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
important
> > but
> > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle and
> > control
> > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you can
> > quickly
> > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge of
your
> > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability rather
than
> > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----



> > > > Guys.....

> > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears Point....here's a
> "tool"
> > > you
> > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run it
> > backwards!

> > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> direction.
> > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but that's not
> > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
backwards
> > > (and
> > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll gain
> > valuable
> > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the track
> > because
> > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the track
> in
> > > all
> > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your backwards lap
> > times
> > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later start to
> come
> > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared for an
> > online
> > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or so
> > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > TP

Tom Pabs

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Tom Pabs » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:44:41

Which is it, David?  You are the one who took your position out of sim
racing......to the big world of race car drivers and guitar players.  Not
me.  I wrote about a way I found to be useful in trying to learn a new road
course....or learn to be faster on an old one........IN SIM RACING!  Now you
have the gall to tell me, "I don't get it?"  WTF, captain!

If you didn't think it would be useful to you....all you had to do is not
try it.  But, what you had to do is to try to belittle me (publicly) for
attempting to help someone....not everyone....just "some of the people"
.............who have expressly said many times on this newsgroup....they
have trouble with the road courses in N2K2.  I offered some advice that I
found (find) useful........all you offered was disagreement and contempt!
Then....when your voice went unsupported......you decided to change to some
crap about how cool your use of the English language is......and it clearly
isn't (cool)!

The smallest people on this planet.......I've come to learn.......are those
that simply can not say the words, "I was wrong."  I have often in the past
called you a pissant, David.  You have just proven yourself to be just that.
And by the way, I am not a distributor for BRD.....so there'll be no need to
write an email message(s) to BRD this time, David.  Okay?

Tom

"David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1027549287.4043.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...
> You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact that
> people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably
arent
> in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers are
> still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have
mastered
> these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra
track
> knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a problem
> once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
> worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one step
> ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

> Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
> points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not confuse
> that with the current level of simulations....

> David

> David Powell <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1027548458.33312.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > <G>

> > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...
> > > David....

> > > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its just
as
> > bad
> > > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much
> every
> > > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal
knowledge
> > of
> > > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who
wins
> > is
> > > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal, then
> its
> > > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> > losers......at
> > > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race
> > tracks.

> > > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the highest
> > > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to apply
> > their
> > > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal
levels....when
> > you
> > > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you would
> > choose
> > > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up a
> > strange
> > > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To
your
> > ears
> > > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> > "arena"....or
> > > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the masters
> > apart
> > > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
> equally
> > > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the world.....it
> is
> > > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from
the
> > > losers.

> > > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
> driver."
> > > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard
at
> > > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in every
> > > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
> walking
> > > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I really
> hope
> > > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > > tomorrow.............

> > > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > > Tom

> > > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:1027529578.17833.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush (the
> car)
> > > to
> > > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But learning
> to
> > > use
> > > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,  the
bit
> > > that
> > > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush and
> paints
> > > > does....

> > > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a guitar
> > like
> > > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of music
> > (track)
> > > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
> important
> > > but
> > > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle and
> > > control
> > > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you can
> > > quickly
> > > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge of
> your
> > > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability rather
> than
> > > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > > ----

> > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:mkLY8.533431$352.90842@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > Guys.....

> > > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears Point....here's a
> > "tool"
> > > > you
> > > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run it
> > > backwards!

> > > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> > direction.
> > > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but that's
not
> > > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
> backwards
> > > > (and
> > > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll gain
> > > valuable
> > > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the track
> > > because
> > > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the
track
> > in
> > > > all
> > > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your backwards
lap
> > > times
> > > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later start to
> > come
> > > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared for an
> > > online
> > > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or so
> > > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > > TP

Alan Bernard

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Alan Bernard » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:17:58

Dude, you are embarrassing yourself, completely and utterly.  This analogy
between painters and sim-car drivers is the effort of someone who hasn't
quite figured out how the world spins on an axis.

Alanb


> You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact that
> people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably
arent
> in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers are
> still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have
mastered
> these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra
track
> knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a problem
> once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
> worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one step
> ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

> Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
> points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not confuse
> that with the current level of simulations....

> David



> > <G>



> > > David....

> > > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its just
as
> > bad
> > > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much
> every
> > > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal
knowledge
> > of
> > > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who
wins
> > is
> > > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal, then
> its
> > > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> > losers......at
> > > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race
> > tracks.

> > > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the highest
> > > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to apply
> > their
> > > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal
levels....when
> > you
> > > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you would
> > choose
> > > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up a
> > strange
> > > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To
your
> > ears
> > > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> > "arena"....or
> > > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the masters
> > apart
> > > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
> equally
> > > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the world.....it
> is
> > > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from
the
> > > losers.

> > > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
> driver."
> > > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard
at
> > > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in every
> > > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
> walking
> > > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I really
> hope
> > > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > > tomorrow.............

> > > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > > Tom



> > > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush (the
> car)
> > > to
> > > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But learning
> to
> > > use
> > > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,  the
bit
> > > that
> > > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush and
> paints
> > > > does....

> > > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a guitar
> > like
> > > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of music
> > (track)
> > > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
> important
> > > but
> > > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle and
> > > control
> > > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you can
> > > quickly
> > > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge of
> your
> > > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability rather
> than
> > > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > > ----



> > > > > Guys.....

> > > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears Point....here's a
> > "tool"
> > > > you
> > > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run it
> > > backwards!

> > > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> > direction.
> > > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but that's
not
> > > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
> backwards
> > > > (and
> > > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll gain
> > > valuable
> > > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the track
> > > because
> > > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the
track
> > in
> > > > all
> > > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your backwards
lap
> > > times
> > > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later start to
> > come
> > > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared for an
> > > online
> > > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or so
> > > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > > TP

David Powel

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by David Powel » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:41:58

Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...

> 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much every
> driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal knowledge
of
> racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who wins
is
> the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal, then its
> the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
losers......at
> least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race

tracks.

The driver that uses his brush and paints most effectively that will win the
day.
The driver that has the best car, best team will win. Even if the driver has
1000laps more than the next man in the best car this isnt gonna effect his
chances on the average sunday one bit. Atleast not in todays supersafe era,
where everyone can find the limit without fear of overcooking it and dying,
as was a case in Clarks day, here extra knowledge maybe make a difference,
in terms of confidence, which will carry to laptimes. Sadly this part of the
issue if rarely a factor today, as the fear factor is gone.

This is like driving home on a road at night that have driven 1000x, youll
be rocketing along, knowing the cambers, and surfaces and feeling secure,
trying to drive a road you dont know so well youll be more worried about
unknown and an effect in laptimes and speed will show.

This could be equated to track knowledge effecting laptimes, like the old
story of Gilles showing up some F1 drivers in a race in FA somewhere in the
states before he made his F1 Debut for Mclaren in 77 at silverstone. This
was a clear show of him having more knowledge of the track than the F1
drivers as they had probably never turned a lap there. James Hunt said
afterwards you gotta see this Gilles guy, he beat me, the guy was using the
barriers to steer the car (street track). Main reason for his showing for
Mclaren in 77. Gilles clearly had done far more laps on this track and the
extra knowledge enabled him to beat the best F1 drivers of the time, Gilles
had dry, wet, half w/d, hot, cold experience at this track and it payed. He
knew every ripple of the road. Gilles knew his canvas better than the
others. The "Home Advantage"....

Of course take Gilles from this place, to a new track noone has seen, give
each driver 50laps to learn and setup the car and a 100lap race on sunday
all in totally identical cars, I can tell you Tom. It would be a mix of many
factors that would decide the winner, and simply saying the one "best knows
the canvas" is far to simplistic. The driver who wins, would be giving the
best feedback about the track to his mechanics gaining the best setups for
race/qual, have the best mechanics, have the best ability to learn to a new
canvas more quickly than his counterparts, be the most talented on the grid
in all respects, usually. Even in a field of F1 drivers the dispartity
between the standard of drivers is quite high, not close as you talk of,
same seems to be the case at local club meeting, usually the disparity here
is much higher, a very wide band of ablilties as the drivers are funding
themselves.

A friend runs a Lotus Esprit in the UK GT championship, a higher end meeting
in the UK sportcar championship. He owns the car, and drives it with a payed
driver. He being the car owner is about 1.5secs a lap slower than the
professional, which is the case in many of the teams, an owner driver whos a
bit slow, and a pro. The driver who wins in this case is fastest and isnt
the one who knows the canvas best, but the one who uses his car, setup,
tyres, fuel the best, the one who has better racecraft, better techincal
ablilty, feedback ability, fitness, experience, talent, maturity, mechanical
sympathy, out right speed, ability to withstand pressure (kimi last weekend
<G>) and..................track knowledge.

But, as we see when drivers like Button, Montoya appear in F1 having never
driven tracks before and during there first season beat there experienced
team mate on a number of occasions. Ralph Schumacher has been to each track
6 times more than Button, 7 more than Montoya, giving him huge ammounts more
track knowledge in wet/dry and general overall experiences with the
character of each canvas. It can only be said that track knowledge is a tiny
part of the overall picture, and not as you say above --"Setting aside
in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who wins is
the one who "best knows the canvas."-- far to simplistic, this equates to
very small factoring in the overall outlook, and certainly in the real world
arena at the top level the other factors are probably 90% of the overall
package.

> You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
"arena"....or
> the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the masters
apart
> from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and equally
> high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the world.....it is
> "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from the
> losers.

"it is "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from
the
losers"

Again you cant believe its this simple? can you....

My statements above can also be applied to this;

These driver Tom are far from Equal, each have different mindset, different
attributes which when they are distended to the level most drivers push
themselves to in sim racing or real world racing its the mindset that is
important the team, car, these make the difference on the day. Rubens is a
world apart from Schumacher, David Coulthard is a world apart from Mika
Hakkinen, Ralph Schumacher displays a very different approach and style than
Montoya. The driver with the best overall package or both car and phychology
will win. Where the gladiators chose to do battle has very little effect
over the other internal and external factors that go towards making a
winner.

The canvas is just a place to display your ablilty to use the canvas and
paints to the height of your ability.

> I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car driver."
> His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard at
> learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in every
> infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for walking
> tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I really hope
> you will dispute me on this fact!

Jimmy was just more talented overall like Moss, Rindt, Stewart, Schumacher,
Senna, Prost etc. I dont believe in a natural gift as such, but i do believe
these drivers, had higher levels of commitment to work, higher overall
intelligence which was clearly a case for Stewart, both on and off the
track. As for you trying to say Jimmy was the same level in skill as his
peers, that is open for a major debate, as id not put 50% of the F1 grid in
the 60's in the same sentance as Jimmy/Moss/Rindt/Stewart. Who clearly were
more adept that thier counterparts.

Thesedays in F1 signing and having manager than can secure you a
williams/mclaren/ferrari seat (or the best team in any formula) is far more
important that track knowledge, as is now the case in most forms of European
motorsport, and always has been. Even karting, top teams get pay the most,
and get engines which should be the "same" but after dyno some are put aside
that produce more HP, and the team with the most money will buy them.

In the 60's one could argue that getting a seat at Lotus was far more
important than track knowledge when it came to results on the track...

Just think you need to open your eyes to the mountain of other factors
involved here rather than saying track "it is "track knowledge" (on any
given day) that separates the winners from the losers"....

Cheeri'o Old Chap......

David

> "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1027529578.17833.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush (the car)
> to
> > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But learning to
> use
> > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,  the bit
> that
> > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush and paints
> > does....

> > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a guitar
like
> > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of music
(track)
> > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt important
> but
> > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle and
> control
> > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you can
> quickly
> > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge of your
> > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability rather than
> > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----

> > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:mkLY8.533431$352.90842@sccrnsc02...
> > > Guys.....

> > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears Point....here's a
"tool"
> > you
> > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run it
> backwards!

> > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
direction.
> > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but that's not
> > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run backwards
> > (and
> > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll

...

read more »

David Powel

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by David Powel » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:44:36

I know that! I spoke to Simon at about this one night a while back after it
came up in a dicussion about pots....

David

"I am not a distributor for BRD.....so there'll be no need to
 write an email message(s) to BRD this time, David.  Okay?

 Tom

> "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1027549287.4043.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...
> > You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact
that
> > people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably
> arent
> > in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers
are
> > still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have
> mastered
> > these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra
> track
> > knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a
problem
> > once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
> > worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one
step
> > ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

> > Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
> > points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not
confuse
> > that with the current level of simulations....

> > David

> > David Powell <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1027548458.33312.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > <G>

> > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...
> > > > David....

> > > > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its
just
> as
> > > bad
> > > > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > > > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > > > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much
> > every
> > > > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal
> knowledge
> > > of
> > > > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > > > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who
> wins
> > > is
> > > > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > > > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal,
then
> > its
> > > > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> > > losers......at
> > > > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race
> > > tracks.

> > > > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the highest
> > > > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to
apply
> > > their
> > > > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal
> levels....when
> > > you
> > > > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you
would
> > > choose
> > > > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up a
> > > strange
> > > > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To
> your
> > > ears
> > > > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > > > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > > > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> > > "arena"....or
> > > > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the
masters
> > > apart
> > > > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
> > equally
> > > > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the
world.....it
> > is
> > > > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from
> the
> > > > losers.

> > > > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
> > driver."
> > > > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard
> at
> > > > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in
every
> > > > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
> > walking
> > > > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I
really
> > hope
> > > > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > > > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > > > tomorrow.............

> > > > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > > > Tom

> > > > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > news:1027529578.17833.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush
(the
> > car)
> > > > to
> > > > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But
learning
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,  the
> bit
> > > > that
> > > > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush and
> > paints
> > > > > does....

> > > > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a
guitar
> > > like
> > > > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of music
> > > (track)
> > > > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
> > important
> > > > but
> > > > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle
and
> > > > control
> > > > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you
can
> > > > quickly
> > > > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge
of
> > your
> > > > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability
rather
> > than
> > > > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > > ----

> > > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:mkLY8.533431$352.90842@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > Guys.....

> > > > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears Point....here's
a
> > > "tool"
> > > > > you
> > > > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run it
> > > > backwards!

> > > > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> > > direction.
> > > > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but that's
> not
> > > > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
> > backwards
> > > > > (and
> > > > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll gain
> > > > valuable
> > > > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the
track
> > > > because
> > > > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the
> track
> > > in
> > > > > all
> > > > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your backwards
> lap
> > > > times
> > > > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later start
to
> > > come
> > > > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared for
an
> > > > online
> > > > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or so
> > > > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > > > TP

David Powel

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by David Powel » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:45:38

If I annoy you Alan theres a simple solution fuck off and stop reading
it....

David

Alan Bernardo <alanberna...@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:GAG%8.23100$uh7.4803@sccrnsc03...
> Dude, you are embarrassing yourself, completely and utterly.  This analogy
> between painters and sim-car drivers is the effort of someone who hasn't
> quite figured out how the world spins on an axis.

> Alanb

> "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1027549287.4043.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...
> > You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact
that
> > people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably
> arent
> > in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers
are
> > still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have
> mastered
> > these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra
> track
> > knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a
problem
> > once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
> > worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one
step
> > ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

> > Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
> > points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not
confuse
> > that with the current level of simulations....

> > David

> > David Powell <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1027548458.33312.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > <G>

> > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...
> > > > David....

> > > > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its
just
> as
> > > bad
> > > > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > > > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > > > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much
> > every
> > > > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal
> knowledge
> > > of
> > > > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > > > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who
> wins
> > > is
> > > > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > > > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal,
then
> > its
> > > > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> > > losers......at
> > > > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race
> > > tracks.

> > > > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the highest
> > > > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to
apply
> > > their
> > > > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal
> levels....when
> > > you
> > > > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you
would
> > > choose
> > > > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up a
> > > strange
> > > > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To
> your
> > > ears
> > > > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > > > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > > > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> > > "arena"....or
> > > > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the
masters
> > > apart
> > > > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
> > equally
> > > > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the
world.....it
> > is
> > > > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from
> the
> > > > losers.

> > > > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
> > driver."
> > > > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard
> at
> > > > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in
every
> > > > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
> > walking
> > > > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I
really
> > hope
> > > > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > > > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > > > tomorrow.............

> > > > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > > > Tom

> > > > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > news:1027529578.17833.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush
(the
> > car)
> > > > to
> > > > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But
learning
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,  the
> bit
> > > > that
> > > > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush and
> > paints
> > > > > does....

> > > > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a
guitar
> > > like
> > > > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of music
> > > (track)
> > > > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
> > important
> > > > but
> > > > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle
and
> > > > control
> > > > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you
can
> > > > quickly
> > > > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge
of
> > your
> > > > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability
rather
> > than
> > > > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > > ----

> > > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:mkLY8.533431$352.90842@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > Guys.....

> > > > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears Point....here's
a
> > > "tool"
> > > > > you
> > > > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run it
> > > > backwards!

> > > > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> > > direction.
> > > > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but that's
> not
> > > > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
> > backwards
> > > > > (and
> > > > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll gain
> > > > valuable
> > > > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the
track
> > > > because
> > > > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the
> track
> > > in
> > > > > all
> > > > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your backwards
> lap
> > > > times
> > > > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later start
to
> > > come
> > > > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared for
an
> > > > online
> > > > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or so
> > > > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > > > TP

Mikkel Gram-Hanse

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Mikkel Gram-Hanse » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:21:18





[MIGHTY SNIP]

Now why did you guys not do this from the start ?
Both of you are capable of producing some interesting points of view, and
both of you are able to communicate your points... focus on that instead of
the petty nagging.
Keep discussing by all means as it is IMHO actually a pretty interesting
argument, but please drop the stupid personal stuff, it really is below both
of you. Never post and never chat when the red mist is in the room.

Mikkel Gram-Hansen

PS: I won't go into who started it this time... being a RAS regular I know
you have probably both started it a million times and as long as the rest of
us get some gold nuggets filtered out between the personal attacks I hope
you both start it a million times more ;)
Just please make the noise/info ratio a bit better.

Alan Bernard

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Alan Bernard » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:43

Class.

In to (notice) the ignore bin.

Alanb

"David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1027554237.39512.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> If I annoy you Alan theres a simple solution fuck off and stop reading
> it....

> David

> Alan Bernardo <alanberna...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:GAG%8.23100$uh7.4803@sccrnsc03...
> > Dude, you are embarrassing yourself, completely and utterly.  This
analogy
> > between painters and sim-car drivers is the effort of someone who hasn't
> > quite figured out how the world spins on an axis.

> > Alanb

> > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1027549287.4043.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...
> > > You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact
> that
> > > people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably
> > arent
> > > in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers
> are
> > > still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have
> > mastered
> > > these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra
> > track
> > > knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a
> problem
> > > once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
> > > worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one
> step
> > > ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

> > > Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
> > > points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not
> confuse
> > > that with the current level of simulations....

> > > David

> > > David Powell <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:1027548458.33312.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > <G>

> > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...
> > > > > David....

> > > > > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its
> just
> > as
> > > > bad
> > > > > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > > > > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > > > > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty
much
> > > every
> > > > > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal
> > knowledge
> > > > of
> > > > > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > > > > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver
who
> > wins
> > > > is
> > > > > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > > > > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal,
> then
> > > its
> > > > > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> > > > losers......at
> > > > > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's
race
> > > > tracks.

> > > > > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the
highest
> > > > > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to
> apply
> > > > their
> > > > > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal
> > levels....when
> > > > you
> > > > > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you
> would
> > > > choose
> > > > > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up
a
> > > > strange
> > > > > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To
> > your
> > > > ears
> > > > > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > > > > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > > > > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> > > > "arena"....or
> > > > > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the
> masters
> > > > apart
> > > > > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
> > > equally
> > > > > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the
> world.....it
> > > is
> > > > > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners
from
> > the
> > > > > losers.

> > > > > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
> > > driver."
> > > > > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work
hard
> > at
> > > > > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in
> every
> > > > > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
> > > walking
> > > > > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I
> really
> > > hope
> > > > > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > > > > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > > > > tomorrow.............

> > > > > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > > > > Tom

> > > > > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > > news:1027529578.17833.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > > > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush
> (the
> > > car)
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But
> learning
> > > to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,
the
> > bit
> > > > > that
> > > > > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush
and
> > > paints
> > > > > > does....

> > > > > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a
> guitar
> > > > like
> > > > > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of
music
> > > > (track)
> > > > > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > > > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
> > > important
> > > > > but
> > > > > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > > > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle
> and
> > > > > control
> > > > > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you
> can
> > > > > quickly
> > > > > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge
> of
> > > your
> > > > > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability
> rather
> > > than
> > > > > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > > > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > --
> > > > > > ----

> > > > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:mkLY8.533431$352.90842@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > > Guys.....

> > > > > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears
Point....here's
> a
> > > > "tool"
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run
it
> > > > > backwards!

> > > > > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> > > > direction.
> > > > > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but
that's
> > not
> > > > > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
> > > backwards
> > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll
gain
> > > > > valuable
> > > > > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the
> track
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the
> > track
> > > > in
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your
backwards
> > lap
> > > > > times
> > > > > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later
start
> to
> > > > come
> > > > > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared
for
> an
> > > > > online
> > > > > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or
so
> > > > > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > > > > TP

Alan Bernard

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Alan Bernard » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:42

Class.

In to (notice) the ignore bin.

Alanb

"David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1027554237.39512.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> If I annoy you Alan theres a simple solution fuck off and stop reading
> it....

> David

> Alan Bernardo <alanberna...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:GAG%8.23100$uh7.4803@sccrnsc03...
> > Dude, you are embarrassing yourself, completely and utterly.  This
analogy
> > between painters and sim-car drivers is the effort of someone who hasn't
> > quite figured out how the world spins on an axis.

> > Alanb

> > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1027549287.4043.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...
> > > You do miss the point though Tom, which was sim racing, and the fact
> that
> > > people who are at the stage of needing help learning a track, probably
> > arent
> > > in the higher climbs of the sim racing drivers leagues. These drivers
> are
> > > still learning to use to use there brush and paints, once they have
> > mastered
> > > these they find gains on the canvas. Ive been at this stage and extra
> > track
> > > knowledge in the sim racing world wouldnt help a bean, no tracks a
> problem
> > > once you can paint, best worrying about learning to paint rather than
> > > worrying about what canvas you choose to paint on. Kinda getting one
> step
> > > ahead of yourself in the career of the average sim driver....

> > > Where variables such as weather, heat etc comes into play some of your
> > > points are valid in respect to "real world" racing....but lets not
> confuse
> > > that with the current level of simulations....

> > > David

> > > David Powell <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:1027548458.33312.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > <G>

> > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...
> > > > > David....

> > > > > You should not come home from work and "drink n' post".......its
> just
> > as
> > > > bad
> > > > > as drinking and dialing, I think.

> > > > > But, since you have......let me counter your points:

> > > > > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty
much
> > > every
> > > > > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal
> > knowledge
> > > > of
> > > > > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > > > > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver
who
> > wins
> > > > is
> > > > > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > > > > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal,
> then
> > > its
> > > > > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> > > > losers......at
> > > > > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's
race
> > > > tracks.

> > > > > 2.  In any discipline (music, sport, theater, dance) at the
highest
> > > > > levels.....the true standouts are those that find unique ways to
> apply
> > > > their
> > > > > tools.....to the medium.  All have basic skills at equal
> > levels....when
> > > > you
> > > > > are among the best of the best.  Even Eric Clapton (strange you
> would
> > > > choose
> > > > > an English guitarist...but that's another point) could not pick up
a
> > > > strange
> > > > > piece of music.....and "play it like a master" within minutes.  To
> > your
> > > > ears
> > > > > perhaps?  But, not to the ears of the other masters!  And, my
> > > > > friend.....that is who Eric would be playing for.

> > > > > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> > > > "arena"....or
> > > > > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the
> masters
> > > > apart
> > > > > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
> > > equally
> > > > > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the
> world.....it
> > > is
> > > > > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners
from
> > the
> > > > > losers.

> > > > > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
> > > driver."
> > > > > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work
hard
> > at
> > > > > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in
> every
> > > > > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
> > > walking
> > > > > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I
> really
> > > hope
> > > > > you will dispute me on this fact!

> > > > > Have a good evening, David.  Hope you don't have a hangover
> > > > > tomorrow.............

> > > > > Cheeri'o Old Chap......

> > > > > Tom

> > > > > "David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > > news:1027529578.17833.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...
> > > > > > P.S i suppose my sentament against Toms comments are:

> > > > > > Like an Artist, once you have learned to paint with your brush
> (the
> > > car)
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the highest levels you can paint on any canvas (track). But
> learning
> > > to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > your brush (car) and paints (setups) is the bit that matters,
the
> > bit
> > > > > that
> > > > > > is the hardest. The canvas doesnt matter but the use of brush
and
> > > paints
> > > > > > does....

> > > > > > Same for a guitar player, it takes 10years to learn to play a
> guitar
> > > > like
> > > > > > Eric Clapton, but once you have, you can pickup any sheet of
music
> > > > (track)
> > > > > > and play it like a master within minutes....

> > > > > > Same for everything most things in life infact, the arena isnt
> > > important
> > > > > but
> > > > > > the skills to you use there are the most important part.....

> > > > > > Track knowledge isnt the key to fast laps, but a maximum handle
> and
> > > > > control
> > > > > > over your vehicle is, as once you have handle over your car, you
> can
> > > > > quickly
> > > > > > find the limit of a track....where as without the best knowledge
> of
> > > your
> > > > > > car, you are playing with your own limits in driving ability
> rather
> > > than
> > > > > > physical limits of the racetrack...

> > > > > > David

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > --
> > > > > > ----

> > > > > > Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:mkLY8.533431$352.90842@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > > Guys.....

> > > > > > > If you are struggling to learn to race at Sears
Point....here's
> a
> > > > "tool"
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > have as a sim racer that real-world drivers don't have:  Run
it
> > > > > backwards!

> > > > > > > Go into a "Testing Session"....run the track in the opposite
> > > > direction.
> > > > > > > You'll need to use a stop watch for your lap times....but
that's
> > not
> > > > > > > unreasonable.  Besides being a total blast of a track to run
> > > backwards
> > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > a completely different track than it is forwards)....you'll
gain
> > > > > valuable
> > > > > > > insight as to what the car wants.....at certain parts of the
> track
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > of the elevation changes.  You'll have a better "feel" for the
> > track
> > > > in
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > places........and you'll have fun doing it.  Get your
backwards
> > lap
> > > > > times
> > > > > > > close to your forward lap times....and you find the later
start
> to
> > > > come
> > > > > > > crashing down.  When ever I'm trying to get myself prepared
for
> an
> > > > > online
> > > > > > > race at Sears....I always start with running a dozen laps or
so
> > > > > > > backwards......its perfect for getting my head into the track.

> > > > > > > By the way, this works great at Watkins Glen too.

> > > > > > > Have fun....give it a try.

> > > > > > > TP

Tom Pabs

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Tom Pabs » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:16:25

Mikkel.....

I'm not sure if your comments are directed more towards one person than the
other.  But, "point well taken" on my end.  Thanks.

Regards,

Tom






> [MIGHTY SNIP]

> Now why did you guys not do this from the start ?
> Both of you are capable of producing some interesting points of view, and
> both of you are able to communicate your points... focus on that instead
of
> the petty nagging.
> Keep discussing by all means as it is IMHO actually a pretty interesting
> argument, but please drop the stupid personal stuff, it really is below
both
> of you. Never post and never chat when the red mist is in the room.

> Mikkel Gram-Hansen

> PS: I won't go into who started it this time... being a RAS regular I know
> you have probably both started it a million times and as long as the rest
of
> us get some gold nuggets filtered out between the personal attacks I hope
> you both start it a million times more ;)
> Just please make the noise/info ratio a bit better.

Uncle Feste

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Uncle Feste » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:45:13


> Can one not asseverate oneself here without such scornful quarantine towards
> ones delivery, was there no indebtedness towards the fine and linguistically
> convoluted ways of pomposity offered by Anglo Saxon prose at ones locale of
> indoctrination?

Sure pegged the Bull Shit Meter with that one.

--

Fester

A lotta people poke fun, and that's alright
But when I start pokin' back they get all uptight
You can't cap with the master, son
So sit your ass down before I blast you one
                                              -- Kid Rock

David Powel

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by David Powel » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:22:45

Just cause they you spastic english in schools on the other side of the pond
doesnt mean one should be scorned for using what one has been taught in a
proper place of inindoctrination.....

I mean if the whole world chewed tobacco, married there cousins, and spoke
in singlular sylables where would be now <G>.....ummmm

This reflects far more on your own small mindness and personal bitterness at
speaking like a pig farmer than at my display of prose......

David



> > Can one not asseverate oneself here without such scornful quarantine
towards
> > ones delivery, was there no indebtedness towards the fine and
linguistically
> > convoluted ways of pomposity offered by Anglo Saxon prose at ones locale
of
> > indoctrination?

> Sure pegged the Bull Shit Meter with that one.

> --

> Fester

> A lotta people poke fun, and that's alright
> But when I start pokin' back they get all uptight
> You can't cap with the master, son
> So sit your ass down before I blast you one
>                                               -- Kid Rock

Uncle Feste

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Uncle Feste » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:00:01


> Just cause they you spastic english in schools on the other side of the pond
> doesnt mean one should be scorned for using what one has been taught in a
> proper place of inindoctrination.....

> I mean if the whole world chewed tobacco, married there cousins, and spoke
> in singlular sylables where would be now <G>.....ummmm

> This reflects far more on your own small mindness and personal bitterness at
> speaking like a pig farmer than at my display of prose......

ROTFLMMFAO!  I think your first two paragraphs speak for themselves.
<g>  Talk about spastic...

--

Fester

A lotta people poke fun, and that's alright
But when I start pokin' back they get all uptight
You can't cap with the master, son
So sit your ass down before I blast you one
                                              -- Kid Rock

B.Farme

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by B.Farme » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:04:53

Dunno 'bout yer display o' prose, but yer spellin' an'
punctuation could use some help.  <burp>

;o)

Brian


> Just cause they you spastic english in schools on the other
side of the pond
> doesnt mean one should be scorned for using what one has been
taught in a
> proper place of inindoctrination.....

> I mean if the whole world chewed tobacco, married there
cousins, and spoke
> in singlular sylables where would be now <G>.....ummmm

> This reflects far more on your own small mindness and personal
bitterness at
> speaking like a pig farmer than at my display of prose......

> David




> > > Can one not asseverate oneself here without such scornful
quarantine
> towards
> > > ones delivery, was there no indebtedness towards the fine
and
> linguistically
> > > convoluted ways of pomposity offered by Anglo Saxon prose
at ones locale
> of
> > > indoctrination?

> > Sure pegged the Bull Shit Meter with that one.

> > --

> > Fester

> > A lotta people poke fun, and that's alright
> > But when I start pokin' back they get all uptight
> > You can't cap with the master, son
> > So sit your ass down before I blast you one
> >                                               -- Kid Rock

Joe Marque

earning Sears Point for N2k2 - A Trick!

by Joe Marque » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:14:53

David and Tom, the theories you argue are more complimentary than
contradictory.  I think you are both failing to synthesize your ideas for
fear of actually agreeing. ;0)

There is not "one" type of excellence.  Some exceptionally talented people
can achieve world class performance with far less experience and hard work
than other less talented peers.  Conversely, some people can overcome a
talent deficiency with incredible persistence and hard work and beat the
more talented opponent.  Those with the exceedingly high pure talent often
times frustrate lesser talented peers who work much harder "studying the
canvas" but still cannot win.  While talent among "masters" may be closely
clustered it is rarely equal.  Masters can still be sorted from best to
worst.  The difference is that the worst master is still far superior to the
best apprentice.

There is also a wild card factor that was neglected called intelligence.
The more a master has of it, the more actual performance he can realize from
his talent and effort.  Rarely we are graced with a bizarre hybrid that
combines very high levels of the three facets of excellence: hard work,
intelligence, and talent.  This devastating combination results in a "master
of the masters," someone who transcends his peers by such a large degree
that he/she redefines excellence in the genre.  Think Tiger Woods, Michael
Jordan, and Wayne Gretzky.  The "best of the rest" are still masters who
have varying levels of natural talent and whose hard work and intelligence
make the difference in actual performance.

--
Joe Marques

"David Powell" <davidpow...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1027554009.39350.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net...

> Tom Pabst <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:BrF%8.22487$uh7.4828@sccrnsc03...

> > 1.  In the real world of racing...at the highest levels, pretty much
every
> > driver is fast, has excellent car control and relatively equal knowledge
> of
> > racecraft.  If not totally equal, its close enough.  Setting aside
> > in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who wins
> is
> > the one who "best knows the canvas."  That would be, in your
> > analogy......the race track.  If the skills are relatively equal, then
its
> > the application thereof, that sets apart the winners and the
> losers......at
> > least that's how it works on any given Sunday on this country's race
> tracks.

> The driver that uses his brush and paints most effectively that will win
the
> day.
> The driver that has the best car, best team will win. Even if the driver
has
> 1000laps more than the next man in the best car this isnt gonna effect his
> chances on the average sunday one bit. Atleast not in todays supersafe
era,
> where everyone can find the limit without fear of overcooking it and
dying,
> as was a case in Clarks day, here extra knowledge maybe make a difference,
> in terms of confidence, which will carry to laptimes. Sadly this part of
the
> issue if rarely a factor today, as the fear factor is gone.

> This is like driving home on a road at night that have driven 1000x, youll
> be rocketing along, knowing the cambers, and surfaces and feeling secure,
> trying to drive a road you dont know so well youll be more worried about
> unknown and an effect in laptimes and speed will show.

> This could be equated to track knowledge effecting laptimes, like the old
> story of Gilles showing up some F1 drivers in a race in FA somewhere in
the
> states before he made his F1 Debut for Mclaren in 77 at silverstone. This
> was a clear show of him having more knowledge of the track than the F1
> drivers as they had probably never turned a lap there. James Hunt said
> afterwards you gotta see this Gilles guy, he beat me, the guy was using
the
> barriers to steer the car (street track). Main reason for his showing for
> Mclaren in 77. Gilles clearly had done far more laps on this track and the
> extra knowledge enabled him to beat the best F1 drivers of the time,
Gilles
> had dry, wet, half w/d, hot, cold experience at this track and it payed.
He
> knew every ripple of the road. Gilles knew his canvas better than the
> others. The "Home Advantage"....

> Of course take Gilles from this place, to a new track noone has seen, give
> each driver 50laps to learn and setup the car and a 100lap race on sunday
> all in totally identical cars, I can tell you Tom. It would be a mix of
many
> factors that would decide the winner, and simply saying the one "best
knows
> the canvas" is far to simplistic. The driver who wins, would be giving the
> best feedback about the track to his mechanics gaining the best setups for
> race/qual, have the best mechanics, have the best ability to learn to a
new
> canvas more quickly than his counterparts, be the most talented on the
grid
> in all respects, usually. Even in a field of F1 drivers the dispartity
> between the standard of drivers is quite high, not close as you talk of,
> same seems to be the case at local club meeting, usually the disparity
here
> is much higher, a very wide band of ablilties as the drivers are funding
> themselves.

> A friend runs a Lotus Esprit in the UK GT championship, a higher end
meeting
> in the UK sportcar championship. He owns the car, and drives it with a
payed
> driver. He being the car owner is about 1.5secs a lap slower than the
> professional, which is the case in many of the teams, an owner driver whos
a
> bit slow, and a pro. The driver who wins in this case is fastest and isnt
> the one who knows the canvas best, but the one who uses his car, setup,
> tyres, fuel the best, the one who has better racecraft, better techincal
> ablilty, feedback ability, fitness, experience, talent, maturity,
mechanical
> sympathy, out right speed, ability to withstand pressure (kimi last
weekend
> <G>) and..................track knowledge.

> But, as we see when drivers like Button, Montoya appear in F1 having never
> driven tracks before and during there first season beat there experienced
> team mate on a number of occasions. Ralph Schumacher has been to each
track
> 6 times more than Button, 7 more than Montoya, giving him huge ammounts
more
> track knowledge in wet/dry and general overall experiences with the
> character of each canvas. It can only be said that track knowledge is a
tiny
> part of the overall picture, and not as you say above --"Setting aside
> in-equality of equipment or the preparation thereof, the driver who wins
is
> the one who "best knows the canvas."-- far to simplistic, this equates to
> very small factoring in the overall outlook, and certainly in the real
world
> arena at the top level the other factors are probably 90% of the overall
> package.

> > You see David.....I think you have it just ass backwards.  The
> "arena"....or
> > the skillful understanding and use of it......is what sets the masters
> apart
> > from each other.  Not their skill levels...which are equal....and
equally
> > high....for the most part.  Among the best drivers of the world.....it
is
> > "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners from the
> > losers.

> "it is "track knowledge" (on any given day) that separates the winners
from
> the
> losers"

> Again you cant believe its this simple? can you....

> My statements above can also be applied to this;

> These driver Tom are far from Equal, each have different mindset,
different
> attributes which when they are distended to the level most drivers push
> themselves to in sim racing or real world racing its the mindset that is
> important the team, car, these make the difference on the day. Rubens is a
> world apart from Schumacher, David Coulthard is a world apart from Mika
> Hakkinen, Ralph Schumacher displays a very different approach and style
than
> Montoya. The driver with the best overall package or both car and
phychology
> will win. Where the gladiators chose to do battle has very little effect
> over the other internal and external factors that go towards making a
> winner.

> The canvas is just a place to display your ablilty to use the canvas and
> paints to the height of your ability.

> > I can guarantee you Jimmy Clark was not "just a skillful race car
driver."
> > His peers were just as skillful, IMHO.  What Jimmy did was work hard at
> > learning his canvas.....the tracks he raced on.  He knew them in every
> > infinite detail.  And, "yes," David.....Jimmy Clark was known for
walking
> > tracks backwards....in order to study their subtle nuances.  I really
hope
> > you will dispute me on this fact!

> Jimmy was just more talented overall like Moss, Rindt, Stewart,
Schumacher,
> Senna, Prost etc. I dont believe in a natural gift as such, but i do
believe
> these drivers, had higher levels of commitment to work, higher overall
> intelligence which was clearly a case for Stewart, both on and off the
> track. As for you trying to say Jimmy was the same level in skill as his
> peers, that is open for a major debate, as id not put 50% of the F1 grid
in
> the 60's in the same sentance as Jimmy/Moss/Rindt/Stewart. Who clearly
were
> more adept that thier counterparts.

> Thesedays in F1 signing and having manager than can secure you a
> williams/mclaren/ferrari seat (or the best team in any formula) is far
more
> important that track knowledge, as is now the case in most forms of
European
> motorsport, and always has been. Even karting, top teams get pay the most,
> and get engines which should be the "same" but after dyno some are put
aside
> that produce more HP, and the team with the most money will buy them.

> In the 60's one could argue that getting a seat at Lotus was far more
> important than track knowledge when it came to results on the track...

> Just think you need to open your eyes to the mountain of other factors
> involved here rather than saying track "it is "track knowledge" (on any
> given day) that separates the winners from the losers"....

> Cheeri'o Old Chap......

...

read more »


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.