rec.autos.simulators

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

Careful Hac

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Careful Hac » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:26:43

Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration...

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Glenn

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jason moy

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by jason moy » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:18:21

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:26:43 GMT, Careful Hack


>Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration...

>http://www.racesimcentral.net/

***.  I've always hated Williams, but that's a nice looking car.

Jason

Wayne Stell

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Wayne Stell » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 12:43:22

It sure better be fast, cause it is ***ugly to me.  Ralph and Juan can
barely muster up a smile sitting on it.  I can't imagine a wind tunnel
scupting something that looks like that over the old nose, but I guess we'll
see.

Wayne

Eldre

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Eldre » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:26:13



>Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration...

>http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600

It's a cowcatcher...<g>

Eldred
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Kasper Kowalsk

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Kasper Kowalsk » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:34:37


I suspect they're trying to reduce some understeer by cleaning up the front
wings airflow.... not sure what implications the shorter nose will have for
flow over the rest of the car. I'll wait til I see some lap times...

KK

Pete Panai

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Pete Panai » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:53:41

Agreed.
An interesting approach to front wing airflow! It seems it creates a nifty
extra tunnel that should generate a larger amount of downforce with less
wing as well as better directing flow under the car too! The Jury is still
out for me as to the beauty of the car. But I don't hate it! I wonder how it
will handle a frontal collision?

More pics...
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

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without accepting it."

- Aristotle

Pete Panai

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Pete Panai » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:56:57

Sorry...the pics are on the left under Photos\Teams...

<Snip>

ZZ

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by ZZ » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:37:23

I found myself wondering if the two arms are inline with the side barge
boards. Thereby increasing the job they do. Perhaps they are meant to be an
extension of the barge boards.
I haven't seen a real good picture of that yet.

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Jay

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Jay » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:01:51

I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and
suspended front wing under it.
At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except this
new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing.

So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future....
Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only
lasted one season ;-)


Bad-Bo

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Bad-Bo » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:47:51


and it was TyrRell that came up with the high wing.
Confused ALL the designers of the day coz they all worked on high mount
di-hedral wings not realizing that Ken had been able to change the airflow
to below the nose and split to the sidepods hence able to make them smaller
and THERE was the saving. It was the effects of the wing elsewhere on the
car.

In those days folks had to test things by building them and putting them in
wind-tunnels.
The Tyrrell designers were laughing all the time they saw someone play with
the wing.
'Course once the trick was known everyone realised and changed the body/pod
designs.

Stephen F

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Stephen F » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:56:00


Only because Goodyear stopped developing tires, and the FIA eventually
outlawed it.  The potential was quite high for that design.

Stephen

Bad-Bo

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Bad-Bo » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:37:26




> > I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and
> > suspended front wing under it.
> > At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except
this
> > new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing.

> > So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future....
> > Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only
> > lasted one season ;-)

> Only because Goodyear stopped developing tires, and the FIA eventually
> outlawed it.  The potential was quite high for that design.

nope, sorry, it wasn't.

It was a dead-end, the benefits from the aero of the lower wheels  were NOT
delivered.
It was also a nightmare to setup as it was difficult controlling the
interactions BETWEEN the two front wheels on corners and bumps.
( all from the mouth of Tyrrel chief designer who visited our car club at
the time of the di-hedral wing )

jason moy

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by jason moy » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:00:49

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:37:26 -0000, "Bad-Boy"


>It was a dead-end, the benefits from the aero of the lower wheels  were NOT
>delivered.
>It was also a nightmare to setup as it was difficult controlling the
>interactions BETWEEN the two front wheels on corners and bumps.
>( all from the mouth of Tyrrel chief designer who visited our car club at
>the time of the di-hedral wing )

Tyrrell must have been a real fan of dead ends then.  I was fairly
certain by 1972 it had been shown that dihedral wings were useless
after the absolutely useless Maurice Philippe-designed Superteam
indycars.  Then again indycars had turbo and ground effect for years
before f1, so maybe it takes awhile for things to catch on over there.

It is interesting that there was no benefit to using 6 wheels when
Williams made a car a few years later using the same idea that was so
much faster than the competition in testing that FIA immediately
banned it.  Granted the FW08 had 4 wheels in the rear, but the idea of
less drag/less lift/more grip was the same.

Final note, as far as setting up the P34 goes, it seemed to do ok when
Tyrrell had Jody Scheckter onboard.  I wouldn't be surprised if its
failure in 77 had as much to do with Peterson's lack of testing/setup
ability as it did with flaws in the design itself.  If goodyear had
given them more resources, and they had a skilled test driver like
Lauda or Andretti, I suspect the history of the P34 would be much
different.

Jason

Bad-Bo

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Bad-Bo » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:56:57


> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:37:26 -0000, "Bad-Boy"

> >It was a dead-end, the benefits from the aero of the lower wheels  were
NOT
> >delivered.
> >It was also a nightmare to setup as it was difficult controlling the
> >interactions BETWEEN the two front wheels on corners and bumps.
> >( all from the mouth of Tyrrel chief designer who visited our car club at
> >the time of the di-hedral wing )

> Tyrrell must have been a real fan of dead ends then.  I was fairly
> certain by 1972 it had been shown that dihedral wings were useless
> after the absolutely useless Maurice Philippe-designed Superteam
> indycars.  Then again indycars had turbo and ground effect for years
> before f1, so maybe it takes awhile for things to catch on over there.

Suggest you read some of Tyrrel history. it is full of great successes ( and
abysmal failures - Yamaha engine :-) )
Ken's team were the forebears of MANY F1 successful design ideas.
The di-hedral was a HUGE success because it was used to allow the Tyrrell to
run MUCH smaller side pods ( 50% ) and reduce drag. Unfortunately for the
time they were so far down on power versus the rest of the competition that
it only made the car mediocre. Once everyone understood it ( almost half a
season later ) then all the cars were doing it.
It wasn't the di-hedral that made the difference, it was the high nose that
the dihedral allowed !!

The 4 wheels on the rear was ONLY about tyre footprint, it had nothing to do
with drag.
FIA limited WIDTH and diamter of rear tyres, so Frank's team did the logical
thing to increase rear *** footprint - run 4 wheels.

It was a dead-end because suspension technology of the day was unable to
cope with the dynamics.
As the front wheel hit a bump they had great difficulty on one hand
absorbing it and on the other
positioning the second wheel to maximise grip. So often the rear tyre would
lift when the front hit bumps.
When this happened during cornering the car was a battle to steer. So set-up
WAS critical, but I wouldn't
say it was Ronnie's issue alone.

I woulnd't consider a 1-2 at Anderstorp as the proof of a winning
machine/driver. The following year to the P34 win, Matra managed it in the
Ligier :-)

Mike Beaucham

OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

by Mike Beaucham » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:16:27

I'm a fan of it.. I'm not going to talk about any theoretical aerodynamic
benefits or whatever like anyone else because I'm not an engineer or
anything and I'm pretty sure Williams know what they are doing...

I think it looks pretty darn cool and should be really interesting to see on
the track..

Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com



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