rec.autos.simulators

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

Joachim Trens

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:19:12

This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread - but
a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again.

I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for.

For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter
whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's the
advantage of using this driving aid?

For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the
clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a
mechanical failure.

Does this driving aid really do anything?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Achim

Mark Daviso

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Mark Daviso » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:26:29


It blips the throttle on downchanges.

That is all.

I don't use it, I have a clutch.  I heel and toe.  More fun :-)

Mark
Reading, UK

Joachim Trens

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:50:31

thanks for the info Mark!

Achim




> > This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread -
> but
> > a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again.

> > I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for.

> > For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter
> > whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's
the
> > advantage of using this driving aid?

> > For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the
> > clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a
> > mechanical failure.

> > Does this driving aid really do anything?

> > Thanks in advance for your replies.

> > Achim

> It blips the throttle on downchanges.

> That is all.

> I don't use it, I have a clutch.  I heel and toe.  More fun :-)

> Mark
> Reading, UK

Gerry Aitke

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Gerry Aitke » Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:50:00




> > This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread -
> but
> > a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again.

> > I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for.

> > For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter
> > whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's the
> > advantage of using this driving aid?

> > For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the
> > clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a
> > mechanical failure.

> > Does this driving aid really do anything?

> > Thanks in advance for your replies.

> > Achim

> It blips the throttle on downchanges.

> That is all.

> I don't use it, I have a clutch.  I heel and toe.  More fun :-)

I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would
sort the men from the boyz. ;)

Gerry

Dave Henri

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Dave Henri » Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:54:25

"Gerry Aitken"
  I have tried usingheal & toe in my real car...I definately would be one of
the boys...
(maybe I need some Irish Spring)
dave henrie

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Dan Belch

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Dan Belch » Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:45:48

I don't even know _how_ to heel and toe.  I can't ever get an explanation that
makes any sense whatsoever....

-----------------------------------------
Dan Belcher
Webmaster,
http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

Damien Smit

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Damien Smit » Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:46:53

Real men don't heel and toe - they left foot brake.

Dave Henri

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Dave Henri » Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:03:35


    It's a misnomer.  Think rather of Big Toe/Little Toe.  Your left foot
handles the clutch, your right foot is set in between the gas and brake.
You roll your foot off the brake and press the gas.  reversing the process
to slow down.  Ideally you should never have to move either foot off the
pedals.
dave henrie

Gerry Aitke

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Gerry Aitke » Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:07:18


> > I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would
> > sort the men from the boyz. ;)

> Real men don't heel and toe - they left foot brake.

So you're saying left foot braking is harder than H&T?
Nick

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Nick » Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:19:28


Try left foot braking in your road car, then try changing gear*... oh no,
where has my third foot gone? That's the whole point of heel/toe, it allows
you to press all three pedals at once with only two feet.

* if you drive an automatic, you won't understand what changing gear is. Go
get a real car.

Nick

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Nick » Tue, 03 Dec 2002 23:03:42


Imagine you are driving along at 60mph on a main road, coming up to a
junction you need to turn down. It is a right angled turn, so you need to
slow down quite a bit. You are currently in 5th gear.

You take your foot off the gas, and hit the brake with your right foot. You
now have engine braking as the revs are coming down and the clutch is still
engaged (engine braking is the reverse effect of engine accelerating - the
engine is trying to drive the wheels slower than they currently are
rotating, so it slows them down), and you also have braking coming from the
brakes themselves.

When the revs come right down, the engine is no longer having much braking
effect on the wheels, and if you don't change gear the wheels will force the
engine to slow down until eventually it will vibrate badly and then stall
when the road speed gets very low. So you need to change down a gear to 4th.

So far, this is nothing to do with heel/toe, this is just what happens every
time you decelerate.

If you have taken your test recently here in the UK, they teach you to hit
the clutch and hold it in while you continue braking, then when you are at
the speed you desire, select the appropriate gear (lets say 2nd), take your
foot off the clutch and drive on. This is the easiest and worst method of
slowing a car down - you might say that it is the slowest method of slowing
down. It takes longest.

An alternative is to hit the clutch, move the gear lever from 5th to 4th,
and release the clutch to engage 4th gear, while still braking. When you hit
the clutch, the engine revs (which were already pretty low), will drop to
idle. The engine revs will be forced up as you engage the gear because the
new gear tries to make the engine run faster, and at the same time the
engine is trying to make the wheels run slower - engine braking again. You
then repeat this for 4th to 3rd and 3rd to 2nd, so you have 4 periods of
engine braking during your slowing down period (5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd gear),
instead of just one (5th gear). This requires more effort, but no more skill
than the above method and will have a larger braking effect, thus slowing
the car quicker, taking less time to slow down.

The problem with the above method is this: when you change gear, the
synchromesh will not engage the gear until the revs of the input and output
shafts in the gearbox are relatively similar, so when you take your foot off
the clutch, the engine is only partially engaged to the wheels until it has
been forced to gain revs, before the connection is fully made and engine
braking can occur with maximum effect. That's why the engine note increases
as you engage the next gear, before decreasing again as engine braking takes
effect. Surely there is a quicker way of getting the engine revs up,
especially as you want to do it when you have your foot on the clutch? Oh
yes, the throttle! Surely it would be faster still (faster to slow down,
that is) if you didn't have to wait for the synchromesh/clutch combination,
and just blipped the throttle with the clutch in while you were moving the
gear stick from 5th to 4th? Yes it is. The only problem is, you will be
using all three pedals at once, with only two feet. That's why you heel/toe.

Actually you don't have to heel/toe (some people find it quite hard to
rotate their foot sideways so that their toes are on the brake and their
heel is on the throttle), you can do it in a rocking motion, so the left
side of your foot is on the brake and the right side of your foot is on the
throttle.

So the sequence is this:

1) Take your right foot off the throttle, and put it on the brake. Engine
braking and regular braking will slow the car down.
2) When the revs reach almost idle, put your left foot on the clutch and
depress it.
3) At the same time, roll/rotate your right foot to blip the throttle, and
move the gear stick from 5th to 4th.
4) Release the clutch.

Repeat 2/3/4 until you have the gear you need.

Heel/toeing is the fastest way to reduce speed, which is why almost all
rally drivers do it. I remember from the foot cam at Portland this year that
Dario Franchitti does it as well. They don't do it in F1 (because there is
no clutch pedal, although some might say that is because the pay-to-race
drivers can't do it...). The problems are numerous. In a race in a car
without ABS, you are constantly altering the pressure on the brake in order
to maximise their effect. To do this at the same time as rotating your foot
to blip the throttle is quite hard. Also, blipping the throttle the right
amount that the engine revs are almost perfect when you release the clutch
is quite hard also. The idea is you blip the throttle in the time it takes
you to move the gear stick, so there is no time lost, so it can get quite
hectic down there in the footwell. Not to mention the manual dexterity
required to perform the action in itself is pretty tricky to learn.

I use it occasionally on the roads. It has got me out of trouble a couple of
times, when an emergency stop from speed was required whilst still retaining
steering control (no ABS on my car). And thanks to the electronics in the
engine of my car at the moment, there are some temperature ranges when it
can't decide whether to ***or not, resulting in the engine just stalling
the first time you hit the clutch (which is fun because the power steering
gives up at the same time...). The only way to avoid this (without spending
money), is to heel/toe until the engine warms up, simply to keep the revs
well above idle every time I stop. I get some funny looks from the
road-walking folk, and it's kinda ironic that they think it's because I
can't drive properly, when in fact I am doing things most drivers on the
road can't manage ;-)

Hope that helps your understanding. If you don't understand something in
there, just reply in the newsgroup and I'll get back to you.

Cheers,

Nick.

Dan Belch

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Dan Belch » Wed, 04 Dec 2002 01:42:48

So when downshifting, engage the clutch while at the same time taking my foot
slightly off the brake and applying a quick blip of throttle, then changing
down the gear, then back on the brakes and disengage the clutch.  Okay, wow,
that sounds like a severe pain in the ass!  How much throttle do you have to
apply, etc.?

-----------------------------------------
Dan Belcher
Webmaster,
http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

Goy Larse

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Goy Larse » Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:02:46


> >    It's a misnomer.  Think rather of Big Toe/Little Toe.  Your left foot
> >handles the clutch, your right foot is set in between the gas and brake.
> >You roll your foot off the brake and press the gas.  reversing the process
> >to slow down.  Ideally you should never have to move either foot off the
> >pedals.
> >dave henrie

> So when downshifting, engage the clutch while at the same time taking my foot
> slightly off the brake and applying a quick blip of throttle, then changing
> down the gear, then back on the brakes and disengage the clutch.  Okay, wow,
> that sounds like a severe pain in the ass!  How much throttle do you have to
> apply, etc.?

Well, "heel'n toe" is something you use if you need to match the engine
revs to the speed of the gear box as you release the clutch to avoid the
rear wheels from breaking traction when you release the clutch, so if
you expect your engine revs in the lower gear to be at 7.5k, you need to
blip the throttle long/hard enough to make sure the engine revs are in
that rev range when you release the clutch, tricky....

And you don't actually release the brakes while blipping the throttle
either, you're still expected to brake at near 100% efficiency the whole
time, you just move the heel of your foot over to the throttle and give
it a quick prod while you still keep the same pressure with the rest of
the foot on the brake pedal

A nascar stocker for instance has a hefty engine braking potential vs
available grip compared to an F1 car, so it becomes even more important
there, but even in a road car you can feel the rear wheels braking
traction if you downshift under full braking and let the clutch out
abruptly, especially if it's a RWD

I know I should learn this but I'm having a hard time getting my feet to
cooperate

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Alex 'pez' Porazinsk

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Alex 'pez' Porazinsk » Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:40:59

dont forget that most race cars dont have synchromesh gear boxes, and what
you get instead is drive line snatch where the rears will just lock up on
you if you come off the clutch too quickly without heel and toeing.

pez




> > I don't even know _how_ to heel and toe.  I can't ever get an
explanation
> that
> > makes any sense whatsoever....

> Imagine you are driving along at 60mph on a main road, coming up to a
> junction you need to turn down. It is a right angled turn, so you need to
> slow down quite a bit. You are currently in 5th gear.

> You take your foot off the gas, and hit the brake with your right foot.
You
> now have engine braking as the revs are coming down and the clutch is
still
> engaged (engine braking is the reverse effect of engine accelerating - the
> engine is trying to drive the wheels slower than they currently are
> rotating, so it slows them down), and you also have braking coming from
the
> brakes themselves.

> When the revs come right down, the engine is no longer having much braking
> effect on the wheels, and if you don't change gear the wheels will force
the
> engine to slow down until eventually it will vibrate badly and then stall
> when the road speed gets very low. So you need to change down a gear to
4th.

> So far, this is nothing to do with heel/toe, this is just what happens
every
> time you decelerate.

> If you have taken your test recently here in the UK, they teach you to hit
> the clutch and hold it in while you continue braking, then when you are at
> the speed you desire, select the appropriate gear (lets say 2nd), take
your
> foot off the clutch and drive on. This is the easiest and worst method of
> slowing a car down - you might say that it is the slowest method of
slowing
> down. It takes longest.

> An alternative is to hit the clutch, move the gear lever from 5th to 4th,
> and release the clutch to engage 4th gear, while still braking. When you
hit
> the clutch, the engine revs (which were already pretty low), will drop to
> idle. The engine revs will be forced up as you engage the gear because the
> new gear tries to make the engine run faster, and at the same time the
> engine is trying to make the wheels run slower - engine braking again. You
> then repeat this for 4th to 3rd and 3rd to 2nd, so you have 4 periods of
> engine braking during your slowing down period (5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd
gear),
> instead of just one (5th gear). This requires more effort, but no more
skill
> than the above method and will have a larger braking effect, thus slowing
> the car quicker, taking less time to slow down.

> The problem with the above method is this: when you change gear, the
> synchromesh will not engage the gear until the revs of the input and
output
> shafts in the gearbox are relatively similar, so when you take your foot
off
> the clutch, the engine is only partially engaged to the wheels until it
has
> been forced to gain revs, before the connection is fully made and engine
> braking can occur with maximum effect. That's why the engine note
increases
> as you engage the next gear, before decreasing again as engine braking
takes
> effect. Surely there is a quicker way of getting the engine revs up,
> especially as you want to do it when you have your foot on the clutch? Oh
> yes, the throttle! Surely it would be faster still (faster to slow down,
> that is) if you didn't have to wait for the synchromesh/clutch
combination,
> and just blipped the throttle with the clutch in while you were moving the
> gear stick from 5th to 4th? Yes it is. The only problem is, you will be
> using all three pedals at once, with only two feet. That's why you
heel/toe.

> Actually you don't have to heel/toe (some people find it quite hard to
> rotate their foot sideways so that their toes are on the brake and their
> heel is on the throttle), you can do it in a rocking motion, so the left
> side of your foot is on the brake and the right side of your foot is on
the
> throttle.

> So the sequence is this:

> 1) Take your right foot off the throttle, and put it on the brake. Engine
> braking and regular braking will slow the car down.
> 2) When the revs reach almost idle, put your left foot on the clutch and
> depress it.
> 3) At the same time, roll/rotate your right foot to blip the throttle, and
> move the gear stick from 5th to 4th.
> 4) Release the clutch.

> Repeat 2/3/4 until you have the gear you need.

> Heel/toeing is the fastest way to reduce speed, which is why almost all
> rally drivers do it. I remember from the foot cam at Portland this year
that
> Dario Franchitti does it as well. They don't do it in F1 (because there is
> no clutch pedal, although some might say that is because the pay-to-race
> drivers can't do it...). The problems are numerous. In a race in a car
> without ABS, you are constantly altering the pressure on the brake in
order
> to maximise their effect. To do this at the same time as rotating your
foot
> to blip the throttle is quite hard. Also, blipping the throttle the right
> amount that the engine revs are almost perfect when you release the clutch
> is quite hard also. The idea is you blip the throttle in the time it takes
> you to move the gear stick, so there is no time lost, so it can get quite
> hectic down there in the footwell. Not to mention the manual dexterity
> required to perform the action in itself is pretty tricky to learn.

> I use it occasionally on the roads. It has got me out of trouble a couple
of
> times, when an emergency stop from speed was required whilst still
retaining
> steering control (no ABS on my car). And thanks to the electronics in the
> engine of my car at the moment, there are some temperature ranges when it
> can't decide whether to ***or not, resulting in the engine just
stalling
> the first time you hit the clutch (which is fun because the power steering
> gives up at the same time...). The only way to avoid this (without
spending
> money), is to heel/toe until the engine warms up, simply to keep the revs
> well above idle every time I stop. I get some funny looks from the
> road-walking folk, and it's kinda ironic that they think it's because I
> can't drive properly, when in fact I am doing things most drivers on the
> road can't manage ;-)

> Hope that helps your understanding. If you don't understand something in
> there, just reply in the newsgroup and I'll get back to you.

> Cheers,

> Nick.

Nick

N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

by Nick » Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:52:14



Yes, stick that in the section at the end, it was only meant to be an
'Idiots guide to Heel/Toeing'...


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