rec.autos.simulators

by **Biz** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:34:21

Well Tom, if you're not going to troubleshoot it in any way, then just try to make sure that
everyone gets the message that your new textures for Sears are not OpenGL compatible. Most if not
all nVidia Geforce(2,3,4) card users will be using OpenGL because of higher framerates vs. D3D.
What video card do you use? And I also assume you have a 1+GHz processor as well? There are many
not that fortunate to have that hw yet...
--
Biz

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash

> Eric...

> Seems this is an issue for Klaus Hobrand......not me. I just use his
> tool.....and after converting the bmps back to mips...with
> WinMip2beta15....OGL doesn't display them properly (especially the "lm"
> mips). I don't know why....but it doesn't happen in D3D....which is what I
> run.....so I'm not going to troubleshoot it for Klaus. You know?

> TP

> > I don't know what's different about your system or the updated MIPs
> > you're using, but lightmaps are fully supported in both the OpenGL and
> > D3D renderers. In fact D3D is the one that is lacking a feature, as
> > only the OpenGL renderer supports specular highlights. So for a true
> > test of performance with equal features you'd need to disable specular
> > highlights in OpenGL to bring it down to D3D's level.

> > - Eric

> > > To make a fair judgment between FPS in OGL and D3D (in N2K2 at
> > least)....you
> > > need to turn off the "eye candy" in D3D that OGL doesn't have (like
> > > light-maps). Once you have the "eye candy" settings at the same
> > > level.......I think you'll find the FPS is higher in D3D. On my
> > > systems....its about 20%. This has been pretty much solid.....for
> > about 2
> > > years now. The only sim I'd prefer to run in OGL is GPL...but you
> > can't
> > > because of the black screen bug. Also, if you have a 19" monitor or
> > > larger....try a higher screen res (like 1280x32 or 1600x32) and use
> > the
> > > highest refresh rate your monitor supports. That won't change the FPS
> > > comparison...but it really shows up in D3D.....over OGL graphic
> > quality.
> > > Systems do vary though.

by **drin** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:47:13

did your pet die today biz?

compatible. Most if not
higher framerates vs. D3D.
as well? There are many

by **Joachim Trens** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:51:06

I'm just hoping you'll try to make it work under OGL as well ;-)

Achim

> Achim...

> You keep bringing this up....and I'm not the guy to ask. Ask Klaus....the
> creator of WinMip2.

> TP

> > Thanks for the info Tom.

> > One thing I noticed: in the default state of the Sears track, N2002 does
> > display (in OpenGL) the shadow under that bridge you show us as an
example
> > for light mapping. I.e., the OpenGL renderer seems to be capable of
> > displaying lightmaps - just not with your graphics or lightmaps.

> > Couldn't it indeed just be a header format issue?

> > Achim

by **Joachim Trens** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:54:22

Hi Tom,

maybe you should download Winmip again.

I have reason to think that there have perhaps been internal version changes
to Winmip although the major version (15) remained the same - it's not very
likely, but maybe the latest version converts your Lightmaps differently.

Achim

by **HORB** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:34:00

Achim, thanks for telling me about this thread.

I just did a mip to bmp and then back to mip conversion with a few of the
"white" mips. Now they work in OGL. Will mean, its not WinMip causing the
problem. A first try for an explanation would be, Tom has reduced the mip
levels. When the OGL rasterizer doesnt find the appropriate mip level it
doesnt display the texture at all and shows the default color instead. But
thats just a guess.

Klaus H?rbrand
WinMip file conversion tool.

by **Eldre** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:06:57

>did your pet die today biz?

>> Well Tom, if you're not going to troubleshoot it in any way, then just try
>to make sure that
>> everyone gets the message that your new textures for Sears are not OpenGL
>compatible. Most if not
>> all nVidia Geforce(2,3,4) card users will be using OpenGL because of
>higher framerates vs. D3D.
>> What video card do you use? And I also assume you have a 1+GHz processor
>as well? There are many
>> not that fortunate to have that hw yet...

I didn't see anything wrong with Biz's post. He wasn't abusive, vulgar, or
anything. He stated an opinion, with a suggestion. What's the prob?

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:37:41

Biz...

Your "attitude" suggests that I withheld that information on purpose. I
wasn't aware that it didn't work in OGL until I released the track to you
RASCAR guys......even stating that it was "unfinished" work (or did you miss
that?). This is exactly the reason why I don't (usually) publicly release
my track texture work....ever. I do this for myself and few guys who I race
online with out here at Sears Point. I am NOT Papyrus....and I'm not
"selling" my work.......I have neither the time nor the inclination to make
my tracks work on every f'ing system there is out there in this sim
community......I'm not obligated to you or anyone to make it work in a
rendering system I don't use myself.....got it? By the way, I have a 1.7gig
AMD (oc'd to around 1.9gigs) and a GF4-ti4600 Nvidia card......I don't agree
that OGL is better graphically...or faster than....D3D.

Maybe you were just having a bad day?

Tom

compatible. Most if not
higher framerates vs. D3D.
as well? There are many

> not that fortunate to have that hw yet...
> --
> Biz

> "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
> alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
> the....." - Ash

> > Eric...

> > Seems this is an issue for Klaus Hobrand......not me. I just use his
> > tool.....and after converting the bmps back to mips...with
> > WinMip2beta15....OGL doesn't display them properly (especially the "lm"
> > mips). I don't know why....but it doesn't happen in D3D....which is
what I
> > run.....so I'm not going to troubleshoot it for Klaus. You know?

> > TP

> > > I don't know what's different about your system or the updated MIPs
> > > you're using, but lightmaps are fully supported in both the OpenGL and
> > > D3D renderers. In fact D3D is the one that is lacking a feature, as
> > > only the OpenGL renderer supports specular highlights. So for a true
> > > test of performance with equal features you'd need to disable specular
> > > highlights in OpenGL to bring it down to D3D's level.

> > > - Eric

> > > > To make a fair judgment between FPS in OGL and D3D (in N2K2 at
> > > least)....you
> > > > need to turn off the "eye candy" in D3D that OGL doesn't have (like
> > > > light-maps). Once you have the "eye candy" settings at the same
> > > > level.......I think you'll find the FPS is higher in D3D. On my
> > > > systems....its about 20%. This has been pretty much solid.....for
> > > about 2
> > > > years now. The only sim I'd prefer to run in OGL is GPL...but you
> > > can't
> > > > because of the black screen bug. Also, if you have a 19" monitor or
> > > > larger....try a higher screen res (like 1280x32 or 1600x32) and use
> > > the
> > > > highest refresh rate your monitor supports. That won't change the
FPS
> > > > comparison...but it really shows up in D3D.....over OGL graphic
> > > quality.
> > > > Systems do vary though.

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:55:06

Klaus...

I'm glad you were made aware of this thread by Joachim......I was going to
email you this morning myself. However, before I did that I wanted to go
back and convert a mip file with the June 16th WinMip2-beta15 on your
site.....and NOT reduce the mip levels. I suspected that could be causing
the problem and apparently you have confirmed that.

Now...I ask you:

In D3D....and in all the past track work I've done in GPL and N3......I
could use the technique of reducing the mip sub-images as a way to "fake"
the mip LOD bias for a particular track texture. I've used that technique
"sparingly" when I head plenty of headroom in FPS power (on past systems).
Apparently, that can't be done with OGL in N2K2....but it doesn't cause the
same (missing texture) problem in D3D. Is that what you are saying? I just
want to be clear about this. I did do this on all the building
textures.....and on most of the light-map mips.......it sharpens the
distance textures as displayed in the graphics engine for N2K2 (in D3D at
least). That's why I suspected it could be causing the missing texture
problem in OGL......or was highly likely to be the cause.

I have noticed that in N2K2.....it does not respond to the LOD slider
settings past "zero" or to the negative.....it only responds to settings
that are positive numbers. This was weird....and somewhat of a concern
until I discovered I could set the LOD levels as desired in the
"rend_d3d.ini" file myself. Apparently, Papyrus has decoupled the LOD
slider in the NV ref drivers and only allows it to be set in the .ini file
(by hand). Its not a big deal....since you only set this once......and
that's it. Is that your experience as well?

Thanks for your input, Klaus......as always...you end up being the "go to
man"......on this type of issue. Your work with WinMip2 over the years has
been nothing short of remarkable. I have thanked you many times
privately....I do so now again....publicly!

Many regards,

Tom

PS: I have some spare time this week in my schedule (now that the Sears WC
race is over)....and I'm going to take the few hours needed to go back and
re-convert all the mips I reduced the sub image levels for (all of the lm
mip files...and all of the building texture files as well)......so this
track will work properly in OGL. I'm doing this because Eric Busch has
raised some excellent points in his post below....and I want to
reinvestigate the quality and FPS of OGL again. I haven't addressed that
issue in a few months....and not at all in N2K2 except for some superficial
benchmarking I routinely do. Eric raised some good points...I want to check
it out. Thanks, Eric......

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 02:09:28

Eric...

With a little more time this morning than I had yesterday.....I did discover
I had a missing lm mip file for the bridge shadow under the "FRAM"
footbridge....that led me to believe the lightmaps were NOT being used by
OGL (especially since they don't show up on the field grass or hill textures
in OGL.....but.....see my response to Klaus Horbrand below.....that's
another reason......I also didn't know when I responded to you yesterday).

I'm going to go fix all the lm mips....and the building texture mips....so
they do work in OGL (now I know what's causing them to be missing). I want
to check out your thoughts on the OGL render vs. the D3D render....it seems
that you are suggesting the OGL is faster....and better graphics quality.
Is that what you are saying? I don't want to waste time chasing my tail
here....you know.....lol....??? Eric...just to be sure.....I am not
"questioning your judgment" on this.....you are certainly in the position of
knowing more about this than I do. I just want to make sure I'm not
misinterpreting your post. Okay....??

Thanks,

Tom

PS: I also want to make sure that you are clear about the fact that I'm not
"knocking" Papy for not using the lm files as I did. Its a ton of work to
create them in the manner I did (to create the dark shading in specific
areas of the trackside textures)....and I'm fully aware that Papyrus must
limit the man-hours spent on any track for its retail sims. I'm just glad
that the aftermarket improvement capability does exist. I hope my work on a
few of your tracks isn't considered as detrimental to their quality.....I
don't intend it that way...at least.

> I don't know what's different about your system or the updated MIPs
> you're using, but lightmaps are fully supported in both the OpenGL and
> D3D renderers. In fact D3D is the one that is lacking a feature, as
> only the OpenGL renderer supports specular highlights. So for a true
> test of performance with equal features you'd need to disable specular
> highlights in OpenGL to bring it down to D3D's level.

> - Eric

> > To make a fair judgment between FPS in OGL and D3D (in N2K2 at
> least)....you
> > need to turn off the "eye candy" in D3D that OGL doesn't have (like
> > light-maps). Once you have the "eye candy" settings at the same
> > level.......I think you'll find the FPS is higher in D3D. On my
> > systems....its about 20%. This has been pretty much solid.....for
> about 2
> > years now. The only sim I'd prefer to run in OGL is GPL...but you
> can't
> > because of the black screen bug. Also, if you have a 19" monitor or
> > larger....try a higher screen res (like 1280x32 or 1600x32) and use
> the
> > highest refresh rate your monitor supports. That won't change the FPS
> > comparison...but it really shows up in D3D.....over OGL graphic
> quality.
> > Systems do vary though.

by **Joachim Trens** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 04:31:24

That is good news Tom :-)

Achim

by **Eric Busc** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:47:30

The relative speed is going to be completely dependent on the hardware and
drivers used, while the visual quality is always going to be subjective.
That said, many users (especially those with Nvidia cards) will find OpenGL
to be faster, and I personally find the graphics quality to be slightly
better as well (though part of that is due to the inclusion of specular
highlights).

- Eric

by **HORB** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 04:37:06

Tom, I did some experiments, proving the theory, that the OGL rasterizer
doesnt display the texture at all, when it doesnt find the expected and
precalculated mip level. So, I fear, your trick for sharper textures wont work
anymore, at least for OGL. You still can replace a 256x256 texture with a
512x512 one, which also results in a sharper image.

by **WilburJ** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:04:15

Ok so until this is redone. Do we just move the extra folder we put in to go
back to the way Sears was?
Thanks,
WilburJr

> For the last four weeks I have been working on re-texturing and re-coloring
> the Sears N2K2 track since winmip2, beta-15 could finally handle the N2K2
> mips. Its not completed....but its enough complete that I though a few of
> you guys running the RASCAR race this weekend at Sears might like to try it.

> I just got home from the track (confirming a few of the last minutes signs
> that were still being painted yesterday)....and want to get this posted here
> before I have to leave again for a while.....so I'll not give much of
> explanation of what is....or is not completed, as of yet. Maybe I can do
> that later tonight when I return?

> Installation:
> 1. Download the file below and unzip all of its contents into the Sears
> track folder.
> www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/sears2k2-main.zip

> 2. Create a sub-folder under the Sears track folder called "trackmat" (must
> be spelled exactly like that).....then download and unzip the zip file's
> contents in the second link below....to that sub-folder......this must be
> done exactly or the new textures won't be displayed.
> www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/sears2k2-trackmat.zip

> This works pretty much like the GPL tracks......the mip files outside the
> track dat will take priority over the ones inside the track dat. If you
> want to remove the re-textured/colored track....just remove all the mip
> files contained in the two zips above from the Sears track folder....bingo,
> you'll be back to Papy originals.

> This is a higher res....but not killer high res.....version than is the
> Papy's original track. But, I don't think it will kill anyone's FPS if you
> have a good "box" to run N2K2 to start with. If you have a "marginal"
> one....probably better not load these textures.

> Have fun you guys...

> Tom

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:46:11

Okay, Eric....thanks for being clear about that.

Regards,

Tom

> The relative speed is going to be completely dependent on the hardware and
> drivers used, while the visual quality is always going to be subjective.
> That said, many users (especially those with Nvidia cards) will find
OpenGL
> to be faster, and I personally find the graphics quality to be slightly
> better as well (though part of that is due to the inclusion of specular
> highlights).

> - Eric

> > I'm going to go fix all the lm mips....and the building texture
mips....so
> > they do work in OGL (now I know what's causing them to be missing). I
> want
> > to check out your thoughts on the OGL render vs. the D3D render....it
> seems
> > that you are suggesting the OGL is faster....and better graphics
quality.
> > Is that what you are saying? I don't want to waste time chasing my tail
> > here....you know.....lol....??? Eric...just to be sure.....I am not
> > "questioning your judgment" on this.....you are certainly in the
position
> of
> > knowing more about this than I do. I just want to make sure I'm not
> > misinterpreting your post. Okay....??

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:57:54

Thanks, Klaus......I will be going back and fixing all those files (return
them to the original mip-sub image level) then. Dang....that was a great
"trick".....now it only works in D3D. I'll have to make a decision about
which rasterizer to use....before doing track graphics now. Before doing
that....I want to put my Sears Point graphics in a condition to run in both
OGL and D3D....so I can do my own comparison studies/tests....and make a
decision for myself (finally) about this issue. That will take a
while...but will keep you posted. I know about increasing the resolution
(256 to 512...for example)....but I don't like to do that without
justification because that can really load up the video card RAM quickly. I
did plan to do that for all the horizon files.....and just hadn't gotten
around to doing it. The 256 horizon files are just too pixilated....for my
taste, at least.......but you can't just double their size.....it doesn't
work very well. You actually have to paint them larger...from scratch.
That's a ton of work....so that's why I back-burnered it for now.

Thanks for your help on this.....

Regards,

Tom

rec.autos.simulators

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race

Sears N2K2 Track for Saturday's RASCAR Race