rec.autos.simulators

When is everyone going to realize that Sierra and Papyrus don't care
about the bugs and the fact we spent our hard earned money on there
peice of junk Nascar2.  If you will notice not one person from Sierra
has responded to any of the post in this newsgroup with any info on an
upgrade or patch. And the only thing they cared about was getting the
bugged filled program out before Chistmas so all of us suckers would
by it. This is the last product I will ever purchase from Papyrus. And
I have bought them all starting with Indy 500 for the Amiga for $70.00
and then Nascar 1 $60 and the Track pack $30 and IndyCarII $50.

They have become just another money hurgry company that does not care
about quailty but only cash flow. Very sad, very sad indeed. The only
way this will change is to stop buying software from companies that
could care less. I am starting my New Years with this resolution. So
long Papyrus, and good luck.

Bruce Chandley

Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking...  Did he complain
to five or six postmasters last month?  Now, you must ask yourself one
question: "Do I feel lucky?"  Well, do you, punk?

        I've mentioned two N2 bugs on this news group.  The first was a common
bug, that had an easy way to avoid it.  I was emailed the next day by a
representative of Papyrus.  He told me what I needed to do.  The second bug
was apparently something new.  A different Papyrus rep emailed me the next
day asking for more details so he could try to duplicate the bug.
        I too am disappointed with all the bugs.  But saying they "don't care", is
unfair.  I would of rather had them wait until it was right too, but I
don't have to answer to Sierra's stock holders.  Besides, with the bashing
Papyrus took in this news group after every announced delay, it's little
wonder they didn't want to announce another!

1ra L. Johnson  

< some snipage involved>

  I'm sorry but there are several members of the Papyrus team posting
here.  AND while no date or details have been offered, they have stated
that certain items are being attempted to be fixed.  The problem is, they
have to be ready for the Nascar Racing League on TEN by this summer, so
any patch has to be gentle enough not to affect the multiplaying
capabilies or the deadline (probably around April or May) to start beta
testing the NRO.  My guess would be, you'll see a patch intime for the
beta testing of NRO and then "possibly" one more once the beta period is
finished.
Dave Henrie

Maybe all software companies should be required to publish release notes
before they sell an updated product.  The release notes would specify
which bugs are deliberately being left in and why they are being left
in.  Even though the reason will probably never be the truth.

David Martin

First time in RAS huh????????
I suggest you spend some time on RAS, look around, READ maybe?
The papyrus gang have been posting here for years. SUPPORT with a capital S!!!
DID YOU SEE THE POST FROM ADAM JUST YESTERDAY!!!!! The Patch is on the way.

Wayne Bradley

| First time in RAS huh????????
| I suggest you spend some time on RAS, look around, READ maybe?
| The papyrus gang have been posting here for years. SUPPORT with a capital S!!!
| DID YOU SEE THE POST FROM ADAM JUST YESTERDAY!!!!! The Patch is on the way.

Sounds familliar... about this time last year, we were saying the same
thing about ICR2.  But I do think (and think Papy would quietly agree)
that Papy takes it's NASCAR stuff more seriously- they know it is
where they make their bucks, and keep the public part of their
reputation.

Question is, and I don't mean this meanly: why do Papy products so
often appear to be inadequately debugged and tested, as compared, say,
to MP's GP2? Especially since ICR2 (namely N2 and NASCAR for PSX). The
programs always have greatness to them, but often lack a "finished"
quality. NASCAR for PSX is great- but why does it eat the Preferences
file every few times I save preferences? Why can't the program save
controller calibrations? It always seems like the products just needed
a few dozen more hours with various testers to find and debug these
sort of things.

N2 doesn't seem to have been run on a lot of machines, nor on a lot of
controllers.

Illustrative fact: I got my family to simultaneously buy GP2 *and* N2
over break for their brand-new computer, and when we got home, they
wanted N2 immediately. I said "I can tell you now, even before the
boxes are open, that GP2 will load up and you will be playing in 5
minutes. But N2 will take hours and hours to get working..."  I was
wrong only in that GP2 took about 4 minutes, and in the end it took
several *days* to figure out how to get N2 to use their video card.
Never got the sound situation quite right, either...  The usual stuff.

just my 3 cents
-David Gary-

<snip>
: Question is, and I don't mean this meanly: why do Papy products so
: often appear to be inadequately debugged and tested, as compared, say,
: to MP's GP2? Especially since ICR2 (namely N2 and NASCAR for PSX). The
: programs always have greatness to them, but often lack a "finished"
: quality. NASCAR for PSX is great- but why does it eat the Preferences
: file every few times I save preferences? Why can't the program save
: controller calibrations? It always seems like the products just needed
: a few dozen more hours with various testers to find and debug these
: sort of things.
<snip>

Because GP2's release was delayed how long?  It's all a blur to me now,
was it 1 year?  Or was it 2 years? Or was it...  And NASCAR2 as delayed
how long?  Was it 1 week, or 1 month?  In a year's time NASCAR2 would be
more than perfect.  That is as long as those damned programmers and game
designers didn't want to add "just one more little thing"!  Sometimes,
it's better just to get it out the door, fix the minor bugs and
omissions in a timely manner and get on with the next project, NASCAR3.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 10:42:53 -0500, David Martin

(And I'll freely admit that there are some bugs that are holdovers
from previous products for one reason or another...)

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

| Truth is, certain aspects (mostl;y graphical) of PSX NASCAR are
| *better* than N2. What I miss from N2- the spotter, the tri-mirror,
| the more drivers in N2, and N2's more interesting competition from
| behind (in PSX NASCAR, you pass somebody, and they pretty much
| dissappear. Maybe this is because I can't qualify above last place!).

Forgot one other thing I miss- I love being able to see *through* the
winshields of other cars ahead of me in N2- can't do this in the PSX
version. Very nice and subtle touch, Papyrus, if I may compliment you
in a thread entitled (unfairly!)  "Re: Papyrus does not care!!!"

| But the cars are just as configurable, and feel the same. And it is a
| blast racing on a big screen.

[edited]
| Because GP2's release was delayed how long?  It's all a blur to me now,
| was it 1 year?  Or was it 2 years? Or was it...  And NASCAR2 as delayed
| how long?  Was it 1 week, or 1 month?  In a year's time NASCAR2 would be
| more than perfect.  That is as long as those damned programmers and game
| designers didn't want to add "just one more little thing"!  Sometimes,
| it's better just to get it out the door, fix the minor bugs and
| omissions in a timely manner and get on with the next project, NASCAR3.

You mean ICR3, I hope!

I generally agree, I'd rather have a great game with some bugs in my
hand. But, as you must have read, most of my complaints are with the
PSX NASCAR that is just out. I love it; but it has bugs. *And their
ain't gonna be a patch for them* , that's the trade off between
computer and console- on the console you can't do anything about the
bugs.

What bugs? Well, preference files eaten up every few times you decide
to change it (makes you a little paranoid to make any changes!), no
saving of controller calibrations... but these are minor. The one
single one that kills me (and I am assuming it is a bug) is that while
I can win races at 110%,  *I can't qualify above last place*, even at
100%. In N2, I can win races at over 100%, and I can generally qualify
between 12th and 16th.

Maybe this isn't a bug; maybe it is their way of making up for
not-so-good "AI from behind." Sure makes for creative ways to get up a
few spaces- I don't mind wiping out a few cars in the start if I can
have a chance to race against cars going my speed. Because, of course,
if you don't get them in the first few laps, you can't ever find the
draft again to catch them. Would have been nice to have a "Where do
you want to start?" to be saved in the fabled preferences file, sort
of like GP2's "Quickrace" options.

Other "bugs"- damage, while pretty, seems to be in permanent "Arcade"
mode- these cars are somewhat more forgiving than N2's, and there's
some occasional (but completely manageable, thanks to Jim's advice)
sound flakiness...

Truth is, certain aspects (mostl;y graphical) of PSX NASCAR are
*better* than N2. What I miss from N2- the spotter, the tri-mirror,
the more drivers in N2, and N2's more interesting competition from
behind (in PSX NASCAR, you pass somebody, and they pretty much
dissappear. Maybe this is because I can't qualify above last place!).
But the cars are just as configurable, and feel the same. And it is a
blast racing on a big screen.

I think there is a "console bias"- companies are just getting used to
thinking of consoles like PSX as potential "alternative computers"-
there is still the general feel that the goal on a console game is "an
arcade  rush", so some "bugs" and "left out features" "don't matter
much." That is understandable, it is where these consoles evolved
from. But I think it will change. Because what these consoles, esp.
N64,  can do is amazing, and for 1/10th to 1/20th the price of a
computer- and with memory prices crashing, the next generation will
undoubtably have more. Seems like memory is still the short-changed
part of these machines. Frankly, I don't understand how they get what
they do out of... *2* megs of ram, on the PSX! Psygnosis' F1 in
particular seems to almost reach shocking levels of speed and track
detail- far better than anything I've seen on PC.

Now I am in no way associated with Papyrus, but I have purchased and
played both Indycar 1 & 2, and now Nascar 1 & 2.  I am a big fan of
the Papyrus line, and my personal opinion is that they produce some
of the finest sims available for the money.  These guys aren't getting
DoD funding, you know.  

If you look at most any piece of software that is as complex as the
above mentioned sims, you will likely find bugs in the initial release.  
When you consider that writing software for the PC means that you are
writing software for an incredible number of hardware combinations, many
of which are not properly configured in the first place, you can begin
to appreciate the magnitude of the problem.  From a hardware/software/OS
standpoint, the PC probably represents the most diverse piece of equipment
to write code for.

You can't even get the high dollar Unix box companies to deliver anything
that even remotely resembles a bug-free operating system, even when
they are controlling the hardware.  Let me see, today I need to get
Patch Number 1667 from Silicon Graphics, but it only gets applied to
specific machines.  Oh yeah, patch numbers in the thousands.  And you
have to hope that today's patch doesn't break something else.  You
say you want patches?  And it's not just SGI, it's all the vendors,
and all of the extremely expensive software packages.

I guess I am just lucky, but I have never had all of the problems installing
hardware and software that other people seem to be having.  I usually
take a look at the instructions, and do what they say.  Well, there was
that damned Reactor card.  The thing wouldn't work with DOS games until
I removed the EMM386 line from my config.sys.  Those bastards . . .
Of course, I don't usually have my soundcard, mouse, modem, scanner, and
coffee maker all sharing the same IRQ, either.  ;-)

Personally, I would like to say "thanks" to Papyrus, for producing software
that has provided me with a lot of entertainment over the years.  

If you really don't like their software, quit using it.  No one is holding
a gun to your head.  Maybe take up flight simulations.  Perhaps Falcon 3.0.  
Now there was a bug-free product . . .

Marcus Pless
UCSD Academic Computing Services