rec.autos.simulators

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

RHinN

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by RHinN » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:11:25

They still do and it is very helpful.


> Oh, btw... APC used to have a UPS 'Sizing' section on their web site.  I'm
> sure it's still there.

> -Larry



> > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is
> > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On
compusa.com
> > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40
> > bucks when you print the discount page out.

w_to

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by w_to » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:57:09

  Why spend $100+ for something when all that is required is a
$10 filter?    But even worse, everyone has just assumed a
noise impulse has compromised an xDSL modem power supply.  But
that power supply already has that filtering.  More likely,
noise is being induced on the phone wire.  For example, is his
phone wire twisted pair? Most older phone lines are not
twisted pair and therefore a excellent receptors of noise on
adjacent wires.  That phone line bundled with wire to power
air conditioner and fan will carry noise impulses into the
xDSL modem.  A $100+ UPS would do nothing to solve this
problem.  What is the phone wire?  Where is that phone wire
(and other household phone wires) run?

  Then there is the question of how the xDSL modem connects to
AC.  Does it use the third prong safety ground or is it just
an two wire connection.  If it is a three wire power plug,
then poor connection on the household safety ground system
would result in another incoming noise path into the xDSL
modem.  Again, the $100+ UPS would not address this problem
either.

  Before seeking expensive solutions, maybe first learn the
reason for that problem?  All this talk of $100+ UPSes for a
$10 filter sounds like everyone has too much money to burn.




> > "EldredP" wrote...
> > > > <snip>
> > > It dies when the AC goes OFF???  I'd expect just the opposite...
> > > If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a
> > > system as you would if you had a prolonged outage.

> > It's not a power loss issue (that would reset the entire PC)... the AC is an
> > inductive load on the mains and, as such, creates "spikes" on same when it's
> > turned off. These transients apparently travel across the DSL modem's power
> > supply and trip up the electronics inside.

> > See also http://www.intetron.com/technobabble.htm

> > That said, indeed seeing as this is not about surviving an outage per se, he
> > doesn't need an "oversized" system. He does need a "true" UPS, not a
> > standby/bypass model though.

>   A good UPS, even a standby one, should have filtering and surge
> protection built-in. Some of the APC's have a sensitivity button on the
> back. Different level set at what point it will switch to battery. At it's
> most sensitive, even a half-wave missing will cause a switchover.

frederickso

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by frederickso » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:10:14

The phone wire hooked up to the DSL modem runs right by the power cord for
the ceiling fan(which is in some plastic pipe attached to the wall and
ceiling) and a bunch of outlets. The DSL modem itself is only powered by the
USB bus. Usually the modem dies by itself but occasionally the other USB
devices die too, although i dont think that has happened recently. This has
happened in 2 different apartments in the same complex, they both have the
same layout. I tried running the phone line through the surge protector but
it doesnt work with the DSL signal. What kind of filter would I use for the
DSL line and where could i get it?


>   Why spend $100+ for something when all that is required is a
> $10 filter?    But even worse, everyone has just assumed a
> noise impulse has compromised an xDSL modem power supply.  But
> that power supply already has that filtering.  More likely,
> noise is being induced on the phone wire.  For example, is his
> phone wire twisted pair? Most older phone lines are not
> twisted pair and therefore a excellent receptors of noise on
> adjacent wires.  That phone line bundled with wire to power
> air conditioner and fan will carry noise impulses into the
> xDSL modem.  A $100+ UPS would do nothing to solve this
> problem.  What is the phone wire?  Where is that phone wire
> (and other household phone wires) run?

>   Then there is the question of how the xDSL modem connects to
> AC.  Does it use the third prong safety ground or is it just
> an two wire connection.  If it is a three wire power plug,
> then poor connection on the household safety ground system
> would result in another incoming noise path into the xDSL
> modem.  Again, the $100+ UPS would not address this problem
> either.

>   Before seeking expensive solutions, maybe first learn the
> reason for that problem?  All this talk of $100+ UPSes for a
> $10 filter sounds like everyone has too much money to burn.

.
Jan Verschuere

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:04:27

W_Tom is right... wrong assumption. Ok, s***the UPS idea for now, as that
might not help (much).

What you describe is a disasterous layout in terms of Electro Magnetic
Disturbance on your phone line. Ok, quick test (assuming this DSL stuff
works the same as ADSL over here): plug the DSL connection into a phone
instead of your DSL modem, pick it up and cycle the power on the AC a couple
times while listening to the dial tone/DSL hiss. If you hear sharp clicks in
unison with the switching you have a problem.

Possibly the only option to aleviate this problem, if both ends of the
connection are accessible, is to bypass the modem phoneline connection with
a lenght of twisted pair wire having the right connectors at each end.

Jan.
=---

frederickso

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by frederickso » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:50:34

Where would i get that? Also, the same thing happens to the modem whenever
there is any lightning bolt within i'd guess a mile or so. Would this
twisted pair wire do anything to prevent that? I'm guessing you just mean
replacing the regular phone wire with this wire you are talking about?

Jan Verschuere

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:35:13

Over here this wire is sold at elektricians (who stock installation
materials) and electonics shops. In a pinch I guess you could also use one
pair in a lenght of UTP patch cable (computer hardware). The only real
problem I see is the commonly used RJ11 connectors require special tooling
to fit them to the wire.

The twisted pair helps in both situations because a disturbance(*) will
cause equal and opposite currents to flow in each conductor, i.e. it cancels
itself out. However, to be on the safe side, I suggest you re-route the
connection through the room in order to stay away from mains wires.

Jan.
=---
(*): The disturbance is the same in both occasions, a sharp change in the
local electro magnetic field due to a peak current. Seeing as lightning is a
lot more powerfull than an AC unit, it's effect is detected over greater
distance, that's all. Same principle as picking up distant lightning bolts
on your car radio.

Eldre

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Eldre » Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:42:54



>  I'm partial to APC because they work reliably. At work, every non-APC
>UPS we've bought has had problems.

At work, every smaller APC UPS we've bought has had problems...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.03
N2002 Rank:+20.124

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:49

IT Services.

What can I say :)

-Larry




> >I tend to go a little overboard on UPS's, but I firmly believe that a
well
> >fed computer is a happy computer :)

> >My File Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it.

> >My Terminal Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it.

> >My main desktop has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it.

> >My G4 iMac has a BackUPS Pro 500 on it.

> >My Network Equipment (Router, Cable Modem, Wireless Access Point) has
it's
> >own BackUPS Pro 500.

> >With the exception of the Laser Printer (you never put those on a UPS)
and
> >the Klipsch ProMedia 5.1's, my entire house full of equipment can stay up
> >for about 45 minutes during a power failure.

> What the hell do you do for a living??  That's a LOT o' shit...<g>

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> GPLRank:+8.03
> N2002 Rank:+20.124

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:49

Any computer superstore.

The heaviest duty Line-Conditioner I know of is the APC 1250.  It's heavy
enough for Laser Printers, but is not cheap.

Howeverr, if you don't have a UPS, I suggest you go that route.

I prefer the BackUPS Pro or SmartUPS Series because they are
Line-Interactive.  The standard BackUPS are not.

Line Interactive means that it can correct brown-outs by applying power from
the battery _without_ transferring over to full-on-battery.

This helps the batter life and UPS life.  Quiet considerably from what I
understand.

I'd also choose one with user-replaceable batteries.  I think just about all
of them are these days (APC at least) except for the really cheap one's.

-Larry


> Where can i buy these things



> > A line filter probably won't do it.

> > But a line _conditioner_ will as long as it has brownout protection
> > included.

> > I suspect we're talking about the same thing, though.

> > -Larry



> > > for what you need, that'll do the job. Just make sure only the PC, and
> not
> > > your monitor is connected. Of course it means you won't see anything
> when
> > > the power goes out, but that's not why you're buying it!

> > > Another option is to buy a power filter instead of UPS - they are
> normally
> > > cheaper, but with what you've been quoted, a small UPS can't go wrong.

> > > Er.. I just noticed something - the special says battery backup, not
> > UPS???
> > > Be careful. If its a battery backup and not a UPS, then it normally
runs
> > is
> > > bypass mode (no filtering). In that case, it'll take a quite a few
> > > milliseconds to switch, and mightn't solve your problem.

> > > I suspect there may be a problem with your PC's power supply. They
have
> > > quite big capacitors in them, and should be able to handle minor surge
> or
> > > disruption for a few hundred milliseconds or so.



> > > > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is
> > > > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On
> > compusa.com
> > > > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for
> 40
> > > > bucks when you print the discount page out.

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:50

For true Sine-Wave output you have to buy the more expensive SmartUPS
series.

Most less-expensive (though good) UPS's use a Modified Square Wave output.
This is fine for anything EXCEPT lighting and A/C rotational devices, such
as fans.

But most people I know don't have A/C motors or lighting connected to their
UPS's :)

The SmartUPS and BackUPS Pro series are Line-Interactive.

The BackUPS line is not.

I consider the Line-Interactive feature a must.

-Larry



> says...
> > As big as you can afford.

> > Watch MicroCenter's circulars (if there is a store near you).  Every now
and
> > then, they get a little crazy and put the APC BackUPS Pro 1100 on sale
for
> > $149 out the door.  It's a $350+ UPS.

>  Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other
> quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my ancient
> 400. I found out the hard way that:
> 1: It's never truly off. It's always charging the battery.
> 2: When it starts charging, some circuitry would 'chirp'. It was not the
> little piezo speaker, as I actually REMOVED it and it still chirped!

>   Too bad, as I bought it because it has true sine-wave output. That made
> it safe to run non-computer equipment. I ended up returning it and just
> buying a new battery for the old one.

>   Just be aware that UPS's are NOT rated in watts, but in amp-hours (AH).
> I think APC (www.apcc.com) has a form you can fill out to get a rough idea
> of what size you need.

>   I'm partial to APC because they work reliably. At work, every non-APC
> UPS we've bought has had problems. The only minor problem with the APC's
> at work is that some have a 'PnP' version of their connection cable (part
> number ends in 95A). Most of their software is designed for the regular
> cable (ends in 102?). When the software starts up and is configured for
> the wrong cable, the front light goes off. When the UPS tries to go on
> battery, it shuts down instead! Win2K's built-in UPS only works properly
> with the regular cable.

> --
> If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
> All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
> law!!
> http://home.att.net/~andyross

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:51

Because EVERYONE should have a UPS anyway.

And a filter will not help line drops.  It only filters unwanted transients
from the line.

He has to have either full Line Conditioning (i.e. APC LN-1250) or a UPS
(preferably with Line Interactive capabilities).

Since the good Line Conditioners, such as the LN-1250 are quite expensive,
he should go ahead and get a UPS.

Line Conditioners are mainly for use with Laser Printers and other
high-current devices that cannot be placed on UPS's.

-Larry


>   Why spend $100+ for something when all that is required is a
> $10 filter?    But even worse, everyone has just assumed a
> noise impulse has compromised an xDSL modem power supply.  But
> that power supply already has that filtering.  More likely,
> noise is being induced on the phone wire.  For example, is his
> phone wire twisted pair? Most older phone lines are not
> twisted pair and therefore a excellent receptors of noise on
> adjacent wires.  That phone line bundled with wire to power
> air conditioner and fan will carry noise impulses into the
> xDSL modem.  A $100+ UPS would do nothing to solve this
> problem.  What is the phone wire?  Where is that phone wire
> (and other household phone wires) run?

>   Then there is the question of how the xDSL modem connects to
> AC.  Does it use the third prong safety ground or is it just
> an two wire connection.  If it is a three wire power plug,
> then poor connection on the household safety ground system
> would result in another incoming noise path into the xDSL
> modem.  Again, the $100+ UPS would not address this problem
> either.

>   Before seeking expensive solutions, maybe first learn the
> reason for that problem?  All this talk of $100+ UPSes for a
> $10 filter sounds like everyone has too much money to burn.




> > > "EldredP" wrote...
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > It dies when the AC goes OFF???  I'd expect just the opposite...
> > > > If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a
> > > > system as you would if you had a prolonged outage.

> > > It's not a power loss issue (that would reset the entire PC)... the AC
is an
> > > inductive load on the mains and, as such, creates "spikes" on same
when it's
> > > turned off. These transients apparently travel across the DSL modem's
power
> > > supply and trip up the electronics inside.

> > > See also http://www.intetron.com/technobabble.htm

> > > That said, indeed seeing as this is not about surviving an outage per
se, he
> > > doesn't need an "oversized" system. He does need a "true" UPS, not a
> > > standby/bypass model though.

> >   A good UPS, even a standby one, should have filtering and surge
> > protection built-in. Some of the APC's have a sensitivity button on the
> > back. Different level set at what point it will switch to battery. At
it's
> > most sensitive, even a half-wave missing will cause a switchover.

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:50

Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs...

Unless they changed something since I sold these several years ago...

-Larry




> >  Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other
> > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my
ancient
> > 400.

>   OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, not a
> Pro 700.

> --
> If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
> All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
> law!!
> http://home.att.net/~andyross

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:51

AVR is also known as Line-Interactive by some manufacturers.

I believe APC uses both terms sometimes.

-Larry


http://www.racesimcentral.net/
6&pcount=&Product_Id=21082&Section.Section_Path=%2FRoot%2FPowerProtection%2F

- Show quoted text -

> UPSDesktopUsage%2F

> Glen Pittman




> "frederickson"

> > >My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is
> > >adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On
> compusa.com
> > >there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40
> > >bucks when you print the discount page out.

> > It dies when the AC goes OFF???  I'd expect just the opposite...  If
it's
> a
> > momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a system as you would if
> you had
> > a prolonged outage.

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> > GPLRank:+8.03
> > N2002 Rank:+20.124

> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larr

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by Larr » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:36:51

I agree, if the problem is on the DSL line, none of the Power devices
described will help UNLESS they have a port for the DSL Line to filter it as
well.  I think some of the newer one's do.

-Larry


w_to

OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

by w_to » Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:59:05

  "True SineWave" is a sales label.  However what was the THD
number in the specs.  Some 'so called' sine wave UPSes are
only closer to a sine wave than their other products because
it outputs less harmonics - yet still too high to be a sine
wave.  What were the THD numbers - or did they make that spec
hard to find?

> Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs...

> Unless they changed something since I sold these several years ago...

> -Larry





> > >  Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other
> > > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my
> ancient
> > > 400.

> >   OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, not a
> > Pro 700.

> > --
> > If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
> > All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
> > law!!
> > http://home.att.net/~andyross


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