rec.autos.simulators

Because it's not that easy.  That 486 could have some incredible pimp-daddy
video card and be able to run the game at a very fast framerate (albeit
probably in VGA).  The Pentium could have some leftover 4 year old ISA card
with an owner who insists on running SVGA with full details even though it
looks like a slideshow.  In a drastic case like this, the 486 driver would
the advantage.

If you can show that at the same framerate VGA is faster than then SVGA on
the same system, then we could have a potential problem.  I'm not sure you
could test it since a: Nascar2 doesnt have a reliable way to determine frame
rates and b: I don't know if you could get SVGA to run at VGA speeds
(perhaps will a lot of details turned off you could run at similar speeds).

--

Thanks for input..

BottomLine...  SPEED COST!!!!

Don

With all due respect, I think the suggestion that " it is the
responsibility of PAPYRUS to slow down the FASTER machines and FRAME RATES
to be the same for all of us"  is rediculous.

How would you like it if your brand new Pentium II machine w/Rendtion
card, capable of 40 fps,  was "forced" to run at at a 15 fps because
you're driving against someone on a 486 with a 1 meg video card?  How
could you effectively create setups knowing that every race you'll be
running at a different frame rate determined by the least common
denominator of the machines your running against?  

The playing field in NASCAR is not fair... just look at the real teams
whining about Ford giving support to only a few teams, or the constant
compaints about rule changes.  Why should we expect the simulation to be
any different? Real NASCAR teams with money have better cars, and teams in
the NROS with better equipment have an advantage.  It is a fact of racing.

If you race for fun like I do, I accept the fact that others who invest
the money in faster systems will have an advantage.  More power to them.
If you take your racing seriously, then you have to pay the price.  

It's not unlike any other hobby... the more serious you are, the more
money you have to spend to be "elite".  I play golf, but I dont force the
guys I play with to use the same set of crappy clubs that I have.  

Getting PAPYRUS to change the software is not the answer.
Well, enough of my rambling....

Well I have it***ed. I use the same hardware and every body has to use
Rendition version -4.

If someboy else brings their hardware then they have to still use SVGA min. if
no Rendition.

Nobody can use vga advantage or not. I won't allow looking at such a pitiful
picture at my place! Maybe for NRO they should make you have to race in a
specific video mode. That should clear up this crazy matter.

Q.B.M.

Come on you know better than that.

Put the program on a 386/40.  It's a slide show.  However, it is
theoriticaly possible to still obtain the same speeds.

I make this comment with a couple assumptions.

The sampling/computation (reading joystick/calculating car positions) is
at a fixed rate which requires only a small amount of processing power.
The display rate is unrelated to the computation rate other than it
should have the same maximum.

If a 486/66 can sample and compute at fixed rate, but only display 10
frames per second, the driver will be slower because they can't react to
things they can't see.  Not because the computations are slower but the
frame rate is slower.

I doubt there is any difference between your speeds if you change from a
P166 with rendition to a P200 with rendition leaving EVERYTHING else the
same.

Your Visual Frame Rate is EVERYTHING until you can obtain the maximum.
Then you should be on even ground. (In that department)

More expensive wheels may have a higher degree of stability, and
consitantcy.  (I.E. turning the wheel 45 degrees left always gives you
the same reading with lower tolerances)  This could effect your speed.

You need to consider EVERY part of the system before assigning blame on
any one part.

I however keep getting stuck on one part (the driver).

mykey

Joysticks faster than wheels? Maybe if the joystick user has pedals
too. My biggest problem has always been gas/brake factor on
sticks,.....it's either all on or all off, no increments.

Mike
Lifes too short,....don't fold your underwear!

---Jim

lot`s of stuff snipped

Don
I don`t know if what you said about Papyrus stating from day one.... and
so on, is true, I`ll take your word for it, but what I read into Jim
Sokoloffs statement, if you don`t read his answer word for word but sum
it up instead is; if you turn down the detail so you get a smooth
framerate it doesn`t matter what kind of machine you have. As for the
controls, of course you can drive better with a steering wheel than with
a keyboard, thats why Opel/GM in all their wisdom put one in my car,
because you get more feel and precission (is that the correct way to
spell that), and you can drive more smoothly (there`s that word again).
Gamecard, if you are among those that have problems with drifting
contols, of course you are going to benefit from a gamecard, you can`t
drive smoothly (again :-)) unless you have precise control of your car.

In my case I know it`s the driver, and I can live with that as long as
he/she is not cheating. It sure looks as if you`re holding a grudge
against Papyrus, because you jump at every little chance you get to pick
on them, and this from a guy who had, in my (not humble at all) opinion,
very vage opinons about cheating some time ago. I can`t quote them
because I don`know how to do a search for those things, so this is from
memory, but I sure got the impression that you ment it was only cheating
if you got caught, so where is the LEVEL PLAYING FIELD then. As a member
of IVGA, 3126 in case you were wondering, I would rather you spend the
time you are using hacking at Papyrus to do something constructive,
because as president of IVGA, you represent over 2800 members, as it
says on the IVGA homepage, whether you like it or not.

The above statement is not meant as a flame or personal attack, even if
it may look like it :-)
And this is where I step down from my soapbox

Beers and cheers
Goy

It's the software's responsibility to not tilt the playing field, but
it's an impossibility to completely level the field as you desire (read
on).

I'm listening, but disagreeing

Presumably it does this by limiting the speed of all machines but the
slowest. That sounds fair to me (sarcasm). Ever played multiplayer
descent or other turn-based MP games? They suck when a slow machine
joins in...

So, they're to synchronize the CONTROL DEVICE? Suddenly my T2 will morph
into a Gravis GamePad, because that's the best someone else has?

This logic amounts to: let's degrade the performance of all but the
slowest computer so that everyone gets the same frame rate... While the
socialistic aspect of it might appeal to some, it seems obviously
inefficient for my P5-90 (that's the fastest machine I personally own)
to sit busy-looping just because someone in my race is running an old
486-33 with an ISA video card. Similarly, if I were to join a race with
someone with a modern machine, their machine would suddenly have to slow
down to allow me to keep up. That amounts to a needless wastage of
resources in my book.

You can't make the playing field perfectly level in every respect. Some
people have bigger monitors, better speakers, wheels, pedals, less
fingerprints/glare on their screen, no SO, pets, kids at home to
interrupt them, more time in their life to practice, etc. Should Papyrus
attempt to simulate all of these differences and somehow degrade
everyone's game so that no one has a theoretical advantage? No.

The differences in lap time are all about fine car control. If you've
set up a machine that gets 1 frame every 10 seconds, how fast do you
think you could drive? Then double it, and keep doubling it. You'll get
faster each time, up to a point, then the improvements will really drop
off.

Fact is: Papyrus is developing a multiplayer SIMULATION of driving a
Winston Cup stockcar in a race. This simulation is best acheived with
the highest framerate possible. Degrading the performance of someone's
P-2-200 just because someone else in the race has a 486-66 is the
antithesis of that goal.

I don't think Papyrus has ever claimed that a higher frame rate doesn't
give better car control, which can lead to a better lap time. What
they've claimed, which is 100% true, is that a better lap time is a
result of better driving, not of faster hardware. (Doubling the CPU
power will not halve the lap time. In fact, if a driver sucks, it
probably won't change the lap time at all...)

---Jim Sokoloff

Speed costs money; how fast do you want to go?

Joe

Hey, it's up to the individual to get the most out of their hardware
configuration.  Just because someone owns a fast Pentium doesn't mean
they know diddly about maximizing it's performance.

This from the self proclaimed "President" of the IVGA?  What does that
say about the credibility of your organization?  It seems like you're on
another one of your witch hunts to me...could it be due to the fact that
you're trying to release your own racing game, so you feel obligated to
do a little Papyrus bashing?

--
God Bless,
Steve

(remove the <remove this> from my address when
replying via e-mail)

I think this discussion would be more productive if everyone gave
insight on what they believe is the best hardware for racing so others
don't go wasting their hard earned money.  I will start the ball
rolling.

I use P166MMX on Supermicro P5MMA TX based motherboard.  This board only
supports a maximum 75mhz system bus which I use to overclock the
processor to 187mhz.  I feel the ultimate situation would be a P233MMX
on a 83mhz system bus and 250mhz processor speed.  I'm not even sure
that the P233MMX will work at that speed, input would be appreciated.
Since the faster system bus improves memory performance and video
performance this is IMO the best way to go.  PPro systems that I have
seen have lousy DMA performance and few options for bus overclocking.
Though I haven't tested any P2 systems I assume they have the same DMA
problems because they currently use the same PPro
chipset(Natoma/440FX).  I'm sure you could add much in regards to
PPro/P2 performance here Don.  I use SDRAM mainly because of its ability
to run the higher system bus speeds reliably.

As far as video goes a Rendition based card is a given.  The Canopus
Total3D and the new Miro card both use a slightly overclocked version of
the Verite chip so they should give a marginally better performance.  I
have read that the Sierra card is now using the same chip, but I haven't
been able to verify this.  A new Rendition card should be available
within the next 2 months or so which may greatly improve the graphics
potential.  It is not known at this time how this new chipset will
effect existing software so this may or may not be an improvement for
Nascar2.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed on that.

I use a Soundblaster AWE64 which I replaced an old AWE32 with.  I was
pleasantly surprised to find it all but eliminated the stutter which I
sometimes got when driving by a pit full of rumbling cars.  Even though
the card is plug and play it was easy to disable the game port so I
could use a Thrustmaster ACM gamecard.

Others may disagree but I find the controller input is more precise and
stable with the ACM gamecard.  I try to adjust the card so the max
calibration numbers are in the 200-250 range.  I believe that this makes
the car more stable.

My wheel setup is a Thrustmaster GP1 with T2 pedals which are modified
so that the two pedals work on separate axis on joystick 2.  I feel that
this helps to keep me from overshooting turns while driving two footed.
It takes some getting used to but it may keep you from running people
over on the short tracks.  Unfortunately N1/N2 doesn't properly model
brake/throttle input or this could be a tremendous advantage.  I should
have probably kept it to myself but what the hell.

I don't think a SCSI subsystem would make a difference because you don't
really access any drives during gameplay.  I would recommend more memory
before trying SCSI, at least the menus run faster with 64meg.  The only
other thing I would recommend is that you eliminate anything running in
the background that you can when running under windows.  I also
recommend running in dos when practicing to eliminate overhead from
windows.

We can now entertain offerings from the peanut gallery.

Dana Bailes

couldn't have.

Steve